[QUOTE=alicen;8862252]
This thread is about competition, not the fabulous moments we have in our backyards.[/QUOTE]
Since they are not allowed in competition,all we are able to see is backyard. Why not allow in competition on a trial basis?
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[QUOTE=pluvinel;8862145]
So apparently dressage only happens while doing a dressage test?[/QUOTE]
Of course not, and as I remarked to the OP there’s nothing preventing her from riding dressage bitless outside of competition. There are, however, rules that require a bit for competition.
[QUOTE=HappyTalk;8862279]
Since they are not allowed in competition,all we are able to see is backyard. Why not allow in competition on a trial basis?[/QUOTE]
The Netherlands has bitless classes.
https://equinewellnessmagazine.com/dressage-in-a-bitless-bridle/
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If so, I hope it is only the cavesson type/side pulls, rather than any of the variety of bitless with leverage I see some horrible riding examples of on facebook and “look, my horse is better with this” when it’s clearly force causing the horse to be “better.” I certainly can understand hackamores and the like in some situations, and perhaps you allow a leverage bitless where you would allow a leverage big - I don’t know enough about how they work to compare there, but for lower levels only simple straightforward no leverage would be appropriate to me.
My gelding has many issues dating back to his time on the track and not being the right temperament for it (hint: if they geld a horse in the middle of his racing career in hopes it makes him more controllable, it may be the wrong career for him!) This includes previously having a fear of bits and contact. We used a cavesson rein on him in addition to a (loose) bit rein for quite some time, teaching him to move forward into contact and to open the throatlatch - because he needed to learn how to use his body properly without fear for his mouth. And he wasn’t afraid of the cavesson. We gradually increased use of the bit so he would learn that also would not hurt him.
Where I see a potential issue with a sidepull is the manner in which a horse flexes when you are only working on the top jaw and not on the bottom is not always the same. Because my gelding actually flexes more off a thought with the seat it is not an issue, but I’m not sure that subtlety could be taught as well without a bit ever. There is also the fact if you have a bit you work on the lower jaw and pulling can often result in gaping (assuming noseband isn’t so tight the horse can’t) whereas you can hide that pulling more with a hackamore which doesn’t work on the lower jaw. A well ridden horse will still have the gentle chewing and saliva production even without a bit in its mouth, as anyone who has worked a horse in hand in a cavesson knows.
Traditional dressage requires a bit. There are other places to go for competition - as others have said, you can try Western Dressage or Cowboy Dressage or Working Eq in a bosal.
I hope we continue to follow the standards of the FEI - and sorry, but that does include use of a bit. And an English style saddle. Luckily there are many, many styles of bits that are accepted.
The bit is about the cycle of energy from hind end to hand and back to hind end - the bit is a much more refined tool then the cross under bitless bridles that are so popular (and are actually pretty harsh).
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8862567]
Traditional dressage requires a bit. There are other places to go for competition - as others have said, you can try Western Dressage or Cowboy Dressage or Working Eq in a bosal.
I hope we continue to follow the standards of the FEI - and sorry, but that does include use of a bit. And an English style saddle. Luckily there are many, many styles of bits that are accepted.
The bit is about the cycle of energy from hind end to hand and back to hind end - the bit is a much more refined tool then the cross under bitless bridles that are so popular (and are actually pretty harsh).[/QUOTE]
Yes, and certain types of sidepulls will tighten and tighten throughout the ride, never releasing. It would be very difficult to decide which ones would be appropriate and which would not.
Also as someone who rides in bitless bridles, the feeling of contact and collection is much different in a bit than bitless. Bitless contact and collection feels like this fake mimic of the real deal.
A local schooling show a few weeks back allowed bitless tests at the show. I was really hoping to be more impressed than I was. Oh well. I think a few riders have really made bit less look beautiful but generally these are horses that were trained with a bit then switched over to bit less… Kind of like how I trained my last dog with a pinch collar before switching her to a nylon collar (and she was perfect in her obedience).
I don’t see the problem with allowing a bitless bridle - I don’t see any reason in principle that a horse could not be trained with a bitless bridle to work into contact – The essence of dressage is what the horse is doing with the hind legs, back, and topline of the neck. If someone can train that with contact through the noseband and poll rather than the mouth – great!. If they get “false collection”, a horse who is reacting to a harsh bridle, or lack of acceptance - well, there is plenty of that seen in horses trained with bits too. The judges should be able to see the quality (or problems) in the horse’s way of going and to score it appropriately regardless of the bridle.
As for saying that some bitless bridles can be quite harsh – well, some bits can be quite harsh too, and most bits CAN be quite harsh if used inappropriately. I hear a concerned, knowledgeable person trying multiple types of tack and saying that the horse reacts better to the bitless bridle. It does not sound to me like the horse is being treated over-le harshly. Yes, there may need to be some regulations about types of bridles to prevent overly harsh ones – but the same is already done for bits.
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I really hope this never passes in dressage.
I think that showing a horse can accept the bit as a very basic concept to be very key in dressage. Not just contact, but the physical presence of a bit in the mouth.
Do some horses really not wear a bit? I don’t know, but I remain a bit skeptical… I have dealt with every brand of fussy/pissy horse and I could always get them worked out with a slow logical process. It was never about the bit- it was the way the bit was presented, rider error, pain, etc. Any issue they claim is an un-movable mountain and must be bitless, well, I smile and say really?
Ride how ever you want otherwise, with any bit, or just a halter. But don’t change the majority because of a minority. I don’t think it’s a valid reason to change things.
I love western dressage as a concept and fully support diversity in shows, where it makes sense.
[QUOTE=rjr;8863016]
I don’t see the problem with allowing a bitless bridle - I don’t see any reason in principle that a horse could not be trained with a bitless bridle to work into contact – The essence of dressage is what the horse is doing with the hind legs, back, and topline of the neck. If someone can train that with contact through the noseband and poll rather than the mouth – great!. If they get “false collection”, a horse who is reacting to a harsh bridle, or lack of acceptance - well, there is plenty of that seen in horses trained with bits too. The judges should be able to see the quality (or problems) in the horse’s way of going and to score it appropriately regardless of the bridle.
As for saying that some bitless bridles can be quite harsh – well, some bits can be quite harsh too, and most bits CAN be quite harsh if used inappropriately. I hear a concerned, knowledgeable person trying multiple types of tack and saying that the horse reacts better to the bitless bridle. It does not sound to me like the horse is being treated over-le harshly. Yes, there may need to be some regulations about types of bridles to prevent overly harsh ones – but the same is already done for bits.[/QUOTE]
The difference is that most people know bits can be harsh. But a lot of people don’t recognize that a bitless bridle can be just as harsh. They see it as a halter, and bitless bridles can be much more harsh than a halter. It is a common misconception among riders.
I think that a bitless option would be nice down the road.
A bit is fundamentally uncomfortable for a horse. You are slipping metal onto the sensitive tongue and bars in the mouth. They do not like it at first. Eventually, they accept it. Like riding, horses learn to tolerate it. It is nice to think that as we learn more about anatomy and a horse’s unique preferences, that we consider the horse is fully capable of being collected without a bit in their mouth.
The fundamental principle of dressage is not ‘bit in mouth’, it’s contact. You can have contact with their head without it having to be inside their mouth. Uta Graf’s horse is a good example of a horse that is steady in the contact and collected without a bit in its mouth. Contact can come in many forms.
A bit is very intimate, and I imagine some horses, never get over their initial discomfort of it. I can certainly see the appeal of looking for solutions comfortable to the horse.
Besides, if you go bitless, you won’t see so many nosebands strappin’ those protesting mouths shut as often. (tongue in cheek)
I know of one UL eventer that had to retire from recognized competitions due to sarcoids - he could not tolerate a bit in his mouth any longer and his rider could not compete in dressage without the bit. He went fine in a hackamore and was very happy.
I don’t see how it negatively impact anyone who wanted to stick to tradition and use a bit. There was a time that the Only Acceptable Way to break a colt was to tie its’ limbs down and cast it until it ceased to struggle. This was widely practiced in Baucher’s time and it’s recorded he used it himself. Thankfully, the dressage masters have moved on from this method – as I am sure, eventually, people will move on with only allowing bits in competition. Just because it is “The Way It Was Always Done” does not mean it is always right for that individual horse.
For some people I cannot feel but that if it is not Their Way, it must Threaten Their Way. It explains the pushback in some posts.
1 Like
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8862567]
Traditional dressage requires a bit. There are other places to go for competition - as others have said, you can try Western Dressage or Cowboy Dressage or Working Eq in a bosal.
I hope we continue to follow the standards of the FEI - and sorry, but that does include use of a bit. And an English style saddle. Luckily there are many, many styles of bits that are accepted.
The bit is about the cycle of energy from hind end to hand and back to hind end - the bit is a much more refined tool then the cross under bitless bridles that are so popular (and are actually pretty harsh).[/QUOTE]
This horse is quite ready to rear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm83pWo6sBM&feature=youtu.be
[QUOTE=carolprudm;8863183]
This horse is quite ready to rear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm83pWo6sBM&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
I confused by your video- are you for bit less riding? Because that video shows exactly what not to do while riding in general.
[QUOTE=carolprudm;8863183]
This horse is quite ready to rear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm83pWo6sBM&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
I do not get your point here. This looks like bad riding, a very tense horse, and a rider that is continuing to do what is obviously making the horse tense, and the situation is getting worse and going no-where. This could happen with a bit or a bitless bridle, or various other pieces of equipment. I do not see it as saying anything about the current topic, which is about whether a bitless bridle can be used for dressage, or is conducive to a proper dressage type connection.
[QUOTE=carolprudm;8863183]
This horse is quite ready to rear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm83pWo6sBM&feature=youtu.be[/QUOTE]
I think you are agreeing with me? Not quite sure, but this illustrates how harsh a cross under bitless bridle is - and this from one of the big “bitless proponents”…
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8863288]
I think you are agreeing with me? Not quite sure, but this illustrates how harsh a cross under bitless bridle is - and this from one of the big “bitless proponents”…[/QUOTE]
Yup
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8863288]
I think you are agreeing with me? Not quite sure, but this illustrates how harsh a cross under bitless bridle is - and this from one of the big “bitless proponents”…[/QUOTE]
But the poll is the highest point … . 
[QUOTE=alicen;8863350]
But the poll is the highest point … .[/QUOTE]
What? I seriously hope you are joking here
[QUOTE=StormyDay;8863355]
What? I seriously hope you are joking here[/QUOTE]
You’re obviously new to the forum. Rev. Buck, as videoed, claims to be the original inventor of the cross under bitless bridle. He was also the cause of many a classic train wrecks. Having the poll be the highest point was his first criteria for correct dressage.
[QUOTE=alicen;8863361]
You’re obviously new to the forum. Rev. Buck, as videoed, claims to be the original inventor of the cross under bitless bridle. He was also the cause of many a classic train wrecks.[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what is going on. Are you supporting that video of overuse of a crossunder bridle? Because that is what it seems like from where I sit.
