I am thinking that this is a good time to shut down this thread. It really isn’t going anywhere and I for one don’t like pointing fingers etc. I read this BB to get information and share information that is helpful to me in eventing and caring for my horses. I am disappointed that this has transformed into something else and that I am a part of that. 
ACMEventing, Movies? What movies? Who has time for movies with the drama we can create on our own??? :lol:
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It occurs to me, that, the title of the thread Will it ever stop? could be applied to the snarkiness; I would have never made to selection trials for a number of reasons, among them, fear for the horses:confused:’ safety; I was told that at that level, all riders are but, they learn to override"" it
Was the horse ever brave and bold?
And we Have to Ask?
[QUOTE=Carol Ames;7689445]
Was the horse ever brave and bold?[/QUOTE]
I love questions that get me to research and learn.
Mandiba born 1999
First recognized HT - 4/2005 (came in first ON)
(so first Rec HT at age 6ish)
In that first year Mandiba went from ON to Prelim in 6 months placing 5th.
Six months later his first 1*, came in first.
In 2008 he did his first 4* (Olympics), but between he bounced around from as low as P up to CIC***/CCI***
From 2005 to 2014 (9 years) he performed in 95 events.
20 events he did not finish either in W, R, E. ME, TE, MR
17 firsts, his top being CIC3* in 2010.
So he had a completion percentage of 79% and in those that he finished a 42% chance to place 4th and above.
After his first year he spent most of his career running in I and above. (think about that for a moment).
in Terms of number of events per year
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl64, width: 60”]2005[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl63, width: 171, align: right”]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2006[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]13[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2007[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]12[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2008[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2009[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2010[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2011[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2012[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2013[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE=“width: 231”]
[TR]
[TD=“class: xl66, width: 60”]2014[/TD]
[TD=“class: xl65, width: 171, align: right”]6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
So you ask the question, was he ever bold and brave?
I don’t know a lot about upper level horses. Maybe these are average numbers, but it seems to me that this is a horse that was asked to perform and he answered to the best of his and his rider’s ability.
Instead, maybe we could ask, was he given a chance to grow into the sport; just over a year starting (N) to running a 1*. Was he given the opportunity to really learn how to read complex questions, gain confidence, come to enjoy the activity? According to official documents, Karen O’Conner rode him from 2005 to 2012. This is a top level rider taking a horse from basic beginnings to the top versus the more ordinary flow of two beings learning and growing along the way. Makes a big difference in how they learn and the time it takes along the way.
I read these comments about Mandiba and it saddens me. He’s a horse. He’s this creature that had a skill and given the training and workload did his best. He is a horse that had a horrible fall of his own, a painful fall, and his response one year later was this:
At perhaps the most important moment of Karen’s team career, she stepped up and delivered the greatest ride I have every seen from her. Those 11 minutes of cross-country today vindicates all of Mandiba’s supporters who believed he deserved another chance to represent the US internationally.
(eventing nation) (my only beef with the comment, greatest ride ever seen by them)
95 events, and we even have to ask the question?
Karen and all of us should just say “Thank you horse for doing something not natural, something very tough and doing it because we ask”. I’d take him in a heartbeat and either let him roll in the grass till he’s green or let him school me around my dinkey LL courses and just have fun till he gets tired of it all and just wants to stand quiet and eat.
Oh JP60 there’s gonna be hell to pay… I, too looked at the horse’s record, and he did pretty damn well. He probably ran a few too many, but its really not unusual to do 10 events a year if the horse is sound. The terrible fall he had was really a stop, a spook,( probably from the air vest going off), and unfortunately he wasn’t on level ground, thus the terrible fall. It also looked to me that he was not able to make the distance, and stopped in self preservation. If he hadn’t it most likely would have been a rotational fall. JMHO on that particular jump.
[QUOTE=SLR;7692162]
…The terrible fall he had was really a stop, a spook,( probably from the air vest going off), and unfortunately he wasn’t on level ground, thus the terrible fall. It also looked to me that he was not able to make the distance, and stopped in self preservation. If he hadn’t it most likely would have been a rotational fall. JMHO on that particular jump.[/QUOTE]
I watched that moment and could agree.
I really wanted to point out that in just a year later, he performed at WEG and did a great job. I know we really can’t compare human and horse emotions, but after a bad fall of my own I was not so ready to get back to the same level, and that was BN.
Horses aren’t brave as much as they learn trust (I feel). In that, KC did a wonderful job in taking that horse and helping it gain the trust needed to run at the highest level again. However, to do that, I feel she needed the horse to want to trust as well, and in my mind he did.
I’ll say it and get boo’ed, Mandiba stopped at that mound log, because he didn’t trust ML. He didn’t know who she was and when the time came for her to help him, possibly because he had horsey memories of something similar, she didn’t listen. A tap before might have helped more than a hard whip after.
I have a horse like that. He will jump most anything in his way (that does not over face). When I’ve stuffed him in to close he’s elevated over the fence, and when I got a little to big, he’d jump long and fix. Any time he saved me was when I was in that moment with him (and apologizing/thanking profusely after). We’ve jumped max Training fences in schooling because I trusted him, but I listened when he started to doubt and reminded him he could do it. I rode with him. 1 hour before that moment, on a basic BN fence, our first for warm up he stopped right in front and I came off. Why? Not because he’s a dirty stop, not because he couldn’t do it, not because he’s a wimp, it was because I had checked out, was in blue screen and riding on auto. He stopped because I was not there and frankly, I rather that then auto pilot horse. My guy demands I do this with him. I bet Mandiba demanded the same from anyone who got on his back. They’re not perfect, horses, but I truly doubt Mandiba stopped because he couldn’t do it or was a wimp. He stopped because the rider was on automatic.
Wasn’t the WEG performance BEFORE the fall?
WEG was definitely before his horrible fall at Badminton (or Burghley?). That was probably in 2011 or 2012. He had at least a full year off because of his ribs and has not run anything over a 2* since–unless with the YR.
KOC said he is happier competing, so that’s why they try to get him out and about.
We all know, and she admits, that the 2008 Olympics were not a good thing for him; that they needed to step back and give him a chance to gain (or regain) confidence. Remember that until very recently, he’s always had a pro ride from one of the best in the world; he probably wouldn’t know how to respond to a “hapless primate” on his back. Maybe he’s a one person horse–and that person is KOC.
Maybe he’d be a different horse if they had not pushed him so hard, but he’s still a damned good event horse.
embarrased
Dammit, I am sorry. I hate to not verify my own statements. It was 2011 that he had that fall. He did have an E in 2009 and I did not take the time to put one to the other, so I admit I mixed things up. (I was at work, but no excuse)
Still, in having to go back and find my mistake I still looked at some other videos and watched the horse that I put forth in my last posts. This is a good horse. When you dig into his detail, when you watch him you cannot help but see a good, honest horse. I’m going with Viney,
he was (and is) a damn good event horse. He did his job well.
Eh, don’t forget his stops in stadium. He wasn’t a good UL event horse. Statistics can be molded any way you like if you look at the numbers as you please. And we all know - with horses it just isn’t about the numbers. A great UL horse that’s unreliable? Arthur. Mandiba can’t compare. If he didn’t have KOC in the irons & generous backers, he never would have started that many times. Now if he was only ever supposed to be a 3* horse - maybe he would have been great at that. Not the case. And given the nasty bucking habit he was said to have, no, I wouldn’t want him in my barn.
Here’s a link to his FEI record. https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=D1A1239A14D9DAE698AF4CD4007097CA
From it, it looks as if they tried to make him a 4* horse long before he was ready. He only had XC problems at the 4* level. Like almost all event horses, he had sj penalties at FEI events. He did have that famous refusal at WEG, but how many other of his sj penalties were refusals and not rails? He was one heck of a good 3* and lower horse, though. Almost never ended up out of the top ten. I’d call that reliable. He just wasn’t a 4* horse.
Holly Morris (TV reporter) was walking him around while doing news story on the WEG prep trials at Great Meadow
I am only a spectator in this sport but it appears that in all equestrian sports money and a big name can easily push a horse too far. On the other hand same rider and backers can take a horse where no one else dared to go… Teddy being one of them…
My horse did Intermediate as a youngster with an ex olympian. The lady I bought him from never got it together at Prelim. Was it the horse or rider or combination?
When I watched this horse with the young rider, he seemed forgiving and scopey. The horrible fall he had was not due to his being a poor jumper. It was a fluke, IMHO. He may actually be overly careful. Not sure about that but it’s another way of looking at him.
My last thought on Mandiba
I wouldn’t want him in my barn.
Well thank goodness for I’d take him any time and day. Better he be in a place where he’s wanted and respected.
Statistics can be molded any way you like if you look at the numbers as you please.
I’m not sure how I could mold the numbers any other way. The question I was researching was about being brave and bold. With close to an 80% completion, 45% of the time placing in the top 4 ribbons I felt he answered that question. I think after 95 events, 9 years of pretty hard work he showed that when asked, he answered. He compared, in numbers, to one of the venerated modern horses in eventing.
From it, it looks as if they tried to make him a 4* horse long before he was ready.
When looking at the numbers, that was my thought as well.
Some horses may learn faster then others, just like people. We also talk like it is only the horses fault when “things go bad”. The rider gets the praise, the horse the blame is what I see a lot in the equine world. Take a horse that does 8 jumps perfectly, but drops a rail on the 9th. Rider? Horse? Both? Are riders perfect or can they check out in moments? As I understand this sport, our job is to guide our mount to the correct spot, in balance, to give them the best condition in which to jump. Now anyone reading this, have you done that 100% of the time? If so then by all means blame the horse, but if, just maybe, us riders are not perfect then consider the number of times that horse fixed our mistakes. Sometimes they don’t fix them perfectly, sometimes we screw up, so let’s not beat down a horse because he refused or knocked down a rail.
Mandiba ran in 95 events. I said he had a 80% completion rate. How many jumps is that? care to guess how many times this horse jumped. Napkin numbers would put it at over 4000* jumps and that does not include schooling, practice etc.
over 4000 times he was asked “will you jump this”, you know what his answer was…
98% of the time he jumped clean. Out of all his recorded jumps, he made a mistake on 55 of them and I’m guessing its more than 4000 jumps. He got eliminated (E/RF/R) only 5 times in his whole career.
You are going to tell me that this is a bad horse, that he can’t compete?
I am not “molding” numbers, I’m just adding them up. You are correct, I don’t know his personality, but what I see from the numbers is that this guy, with the right rider, was very good.
To bring back on topic, will it ever stop? This got started because a very good horse, a horse most anyone would love to have (except goodmorning), refused one fence at an Open I course, ridden in competition for only the third time by ML. Some, including me felt Mandiba may have backed off, because the question was similar to one where he got hurt, and maybe what he needed was a rider who knew him, not just rode him, to help him gain confidence in that moment. He jumped beautiful after that one fence.
The horse is 15 years old, has performed at the top for multiple years, has helped KOC gain prizes and fame and I doubt anyone would argue, has earned his keep. There is nothing wrong with this horse other then age and wear and tear from that long competing. Instead of ML riding him (for what ever reason) he deserves a young rider perhaps, or an experienced amatuer who he can help learn the ropes, or maybe he earned his time in the pasture doing nothing but looking at us fools and saying “Thank God I survived them”.
I gotta admit that EVERY time that I see the title of this thread, Ice Ice , Baby starts running through my head. 
“Will it ever stop? Yo, I don’t know. Turn on the mic and I flow, to the extreme I rock like a vandal…”
JP60, I have no idea who you are (I am not good at investigating the who is who on COTH), but I do think that you are brilliant and sensible. Thank you!
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