Been in several show barns that had some stalls with the additional lighting for broodies (and discourage yak hair/encourage early shedding) but most mares of any breed in the northern hemisphere start estrus mid Feb or early March on their own. Those lights went on in mid Dec IIRC.
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Yes. Starting them in March would be pointless.
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I donāt know about lights in breeding operations but the show crowd and their blazing lights on drives me nuts. Geezus, just clip your horse will ya, and let everybody get a good nightās sleep with the lights out.
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The lights in breeding operations go on mid December to simulate actual hours of daylight and trigger the hormones to restart estrus. They must be a certain candle power, are expensive to install and gosh awful expensive to have on. Generally not on outside that window. Even if used for the coat, thats triggered by length of daylight too.
No personal experience but have heard they do use the lights for horses changing hemispheres adapting to the flipped seasons which makes sense.
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Exactly. The March comment made no sense at all.
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I assure you they were lying. There is no way anyone would risk not being able to register their foal when the mare and stallion were literally in the same room
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If nothing else, there are a LOT of people on hand during breeding season. Too many for anyone with a microgram of sense to be confident that no one will blab. All it takes is one employee who feels slighted.
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This absolutely did not happen in the stock horse industry. The regional stallions disappeared.
not sure why this replied to Laurie B. anyway I agree with her and was responding to snaffle
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That small gene pool stuff with AI you are spewing has been debunked time and again.
As a breeder who has done it both ways, AI is tremendously easier and SAFER for all involved. AI is also more effective at getting a mare to settle.
Kentucky Live Cover is nothing but a group of selfish old guys trying to prop up breeding farms. Itās as behind the times as brick and mortar buildings vs on-line purchasing.
Requiring Live Cover when AI is SAFER for the mare, the stallion, the employees and certainly the foal is just immoral and stupid.
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It has not been debunked with thoroughbreds.
Even race-bred Standardbreds, QHs, and Arabs are very different markets.
And weāll just have to agree to disagree about AI being more effective to get mares to settle. Safer, sureā¦
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In Thoroughbreds, the value of a horse (in performance and for breeding) is tested by itās racing career over two, three or more years in training. Then the animal either retires to the breeding paddocks to produce more TBs for racing or (predominantly as geldings) go on to a second career in sport and leisure riding. A great racehorse is worth $$$$$$$ and a poor one $$$ or less: the speed of the financial depreciation is enough to cause windburn! The residual value of a TB is in breeding, the verifiable blood lines, the careful, āthoroughā, breeding and only the owners of a top stallion can make steady money, enough to support the cost of the breeding infrastructure. Hardly surprisingly, the value of TB stallions is rigorously protected. This a very focused way to sustain a particular breed and it has worked over multiple centuries and all around the globe. It is ruthless selection that has produced such a unique breed, one that has the ability to improve the performance of other breeds. A TB from Chile can still trace its family tree back to some particular fields in Yorkshire, England, in the 18th century. TB racing is a hugely expensive dream for some, a way of life for many and it is a multi billion global industry supporting an entire economic ecosystem.
Rarity has a value. Anyone around the world can own a post card or a mug or a tee shirt with an image of da Vinciās Mona Lisa on it but there is only one original painting and each year millions of tourists flock to see it in The Louvre. Is the painting worth spending a fortune to go to see? No, probably not because the crowds are so thick it is really difficult to see a very small picture hanging on a gallery wall. However, the rest of the museum is filled with multiple wonders and delights and a visit to Paris is always immense fun.
As Iāve said before somewhere up thread, if someone wants TB blood but doesnāt want live cover, look for a TB stallion being used for breeding sport horses. Frozen or chilled is available. You can even create a clone. The only thing is you canāt register the resulting foal as a Thoroughbred.
Is there anything in the rule book to stop someone running a non-TB in an American or Canadian race? In France there is the āAutre Que Pure-Sangā (AQPS) which translates as āOther than Thoroughbredā and covers Arabs, Angloarabs and Selle Francis that are used in racing. The UK sources a lot of jump racers in France.
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As a breeder who also does it both ways, I almost always prefer live cover. In fact, Iāve had several WB mares turned to my TB stallion BECAUSE he is offered live cover; after multiple tries AI (fresh and frozen) they were not pregnant, but they caught with my stallion LC.
In all the mares heās bred, only one (that happened to be mine, and not a maiden) caused a dangerous situation and kicked him. I take responsibility for it, as my usual help was not available and I had to use a less-experienced person to hold the mare. In all other situations, LC has been safe and relatively easy. I will use sedation if needed.
After delayed AI shipments, both sending and receiving, I like the security of live cover. Iād rather haul my mare 700 miles overnight from FL to KY to get bred, than rely on UPS/FedEx to deliver my semen on time. Out of dozens of matings, Iāve yet to miss a cycle when I ship the mare (& foal).
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The ONLY argument I could get behind regarding AI for TBs would be biosecurity.
Isnāt that why the Standardbreds embraced it? I believe they had an outbreak of something infectious.
Shipping foals? After seeing it be such a non-issue, it doesnāt bother me.
Safety for humans and horses? AI gets a slight nod, but accidents can still happen with AI and live cover is not inherently unsafe in any way, especially not how itās done at professional stud farms.
Effectiveness? Live cover hands down in the majority of instances.
And then thereās that unintended benefit of preserving some genetic diversity in the US thanks to cost and distance that would be a shame to lose.
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Iām going to flip the script. What do people think of embryo transfer? A mare having several foals in a year, as is done in many other breeds?
I have no problem with it personally. But if the JC isnāt allowing AI there is zero chance in hell of them allowing ET. Even AQHA started at one foal a year, but there was a mistake made one year where two foals were registered in the same year out of the same mare, so AQHA lost a lawsuit on that one due to a precedent set over what was a mistake.
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Iām surprised by such an emotional reaction to the discussion of live cover. Itās none of my business, but it makes me wonder if youāve had a horse that had a bad experience in the breeding shed. If that is the case, Iām truly sorry.
Itās vital to have a stallion handler and other employees who are very skilled for live cover to be safe and successful, and itās been done quite well, all over the world, for a long time.
As for this?
The live cover rule for Thoroughbreds didnāt originate in Kentucky.
Every Jockey Club in every country follows the same rule to have a foal entered into their studbooks. Here are the members of the IFHA: https://www.ifhaonline.org/default.asp?section=About%20IFHA&area=5
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This isnāt an āagree to disagreeā point. Statistically, pregnancy rates are about 10% higher for AI compared to live cover (per Jos Motterhead/Kathy St. Martin). Live cover is cheaper/simpler, but not more effective.
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This is a pretty disagreed on point in even published veterinary journals. This is older but summarizes the challenges:
https://www.selectbreeders.com/articles/a-review-of-reports-for-reproductive-efficiency
My takeaway has always been AI has a great conception rate when everything goes perfectly. Problem is, everything rarely goes perfectly. Your mare doesnāt ovulate as expected. The stallion you choose doesnāt ship well. FedEx screws you over. Etc. etc.
I have nothing against AI. I donāt think the whole world should go back to LC. My argument always has been that the archaic LC only rule has been an unintended blessing for the TB breed and that moving away from it would not benefit thoroughbreds.
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So much depends on the mare, her mind, her health, her preparation to ensure the time of her reproductive cycle, the skill of the vets, the reliability of the postal or courier service, the skills of the technical support at the stallion station, the quality of the seman, itās age, itās preservatives and extenders and even when it was collected. An AI stallion standing at the end of a long list of variables versus a live cover mare standing in front of a stallion. Horses for courses perhaps.
It is great for breeders that there is now so much technology behind the art of breeding. Is it great for the horses? Someone up thread asked about embryo transfer and the welfare of the mare.
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I think that LC and AI both fit where they fit and none is perfect.
Both have good and better points when compared.
The question is of breederās choice.
Should be up to breeders and each one should choose one or both as fits best for them and their goals.
We canāt say if banning AI did help or not TBs as a breed, there has not been AI impact to compare LC with.
Having options is generally better, has been working fine for other breeds where both are used.
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