Will this exercise stress the hocks?

[JB]

@RainWeasley

Because the purpose for a western horse isn’t the same as a dressage. Doing a dressage turn on the haunches/pirouette just isn’t going to be effective for getting down and cutting off a cow. The turn on the haunches for a ranch horse is a build up to cutting, technically. Your cowhorse has to be able to plant that hind end down, then turn and launch off the other direction fast.

Yes, I know they are different. I understand the spin can be related to cutting. But I also know that the horse who is cutting a cow is going to move his feet in whatever manner he needs to go whichever direction as fast as he can. While he may do

I merely stated I don’t understand why the show ring requires such a planted inside foot, when that is not natural to the horse. It’s not something they would do on their own beyond a single instance of them heaving their front end over and out of the way of someone or something.

And all the western events (barrels, roping, gaming, western pleasure even) are based off the requirements for a good ranch horse. One that is fast, one that is catty and can turn on a dime, one that has gaits that would be easy to ride for hours while driving cattle. Whole different world, totally different movements needed.

And most if not all of those discplines have bastardized some part of the useful movement of the horse to suit man-made aethetics. There is zero similarity between today’s WP or HUS ring, and a horse who is actually a pleasure to ride and can go all day on a working ranch.

@Groom&Taxi

Actually outside hind is correct - so RH sticks if pivoting to right (clockwise) and LH if pivoting to left.

The inside hind leg is whichever direction the horse is moving, so if the horse is turning right, the RH is the inside leg.

I have seen horses who have learned to stick the inside hind but it is not technically correct because you want the foot that is moving to be crossing in front of the planted foot (=forward motion). Planting the inside foot typically results in backward motion (outside foot stepping back and behind).

Except I listed different sources for what is desired in the show ring, which is to plant/stick the inside foot. For SURE it would get faulted on a SMS horse if they picked up that inside hind. there’s some leniency in a reining spin, but it needs to be clear the horse is working hard to not lift it off the ground. It’s going to move, it can’t not move. But the goal is to not have it lifted. Every video of “good” Pivots show that inside hind planted, with the outside hind walking around it.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@JB

The inside hind leg is whichever direction the horse is moving, so if the horse is turning right, the RH is the inside leg.

Aha, sounds like I was using inside and outside incorrectly at times in this discussion - I tend not to think in terms of inside and outside except when riding circles.

[JB]

@Groom&Taxi

Are you using the terms inside and outside interchangeable with near and off? Because if you watch the video with sound on, the narrator is quite explicit about which hind foot is planted and which hind foot moves depending on whether the turn is to the right or the left.

The video clearly shows the RH planted as the pivot foot when turning to the right, and that’s the inside leg/foot. Inside and outside are all based on the bend of the horse.

Turning right ,the bend is to the right, therefore the right legs are the inside legs.

Near and off are based on the perspective of the person OR, in some cases, near = left and off = right no matter what. As in, “always lead the horse from the near side”, aka “always lead from the left” (not that I believe that, but some do).

[JB]

@Groom&Taxi

Aha, sounds like I was using inside and outside incorrectly at time in this discussion - I tend not to think in terms of inside and outside except when riding circles.

There’s always an inside and outside to the horse, unless you’re just loose rein free walking nothing being asked of the horse

If you’re counter-cantering, on the right lead but going left, the inside of the horse is the right legs, not the left legs

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@JB

If you’re counter-cantering, on the right lead but going left, the inside of the horse is the right legs, not the left legs

That concept makes my head explode.

[Palm_Beach]

@JB

But even if it was a spin, the ideal is still to have the inside foot planted. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t get lifted, but the goal is to plant
https://equestrianwriter.com/blog/2017/10/02/mastering-reining-spin/
"A proper reining spin should be executed with the inside foot planted as the pivot foot. "

Pathetic source and bad information. Google Pivot Foot While Spinning Tom Mc Cutcheon. He has a video that explains the movement of the feet in a spin.

[J-Lu]

@Palm Beach

Pathetic source and bad information. Google Pivot Foot While Spinning Tom Mc Cutcheon. He has a video that explains the movement of the feet in a spin.

I don’t think JB was talking about spinning. We have a Western Trainer who trains horses out of the barn and he always talks about pivoting on the inside hind. When I ride with him I tell him I don’t wan’t my horse to do that. Other trainers come help him for certain events and they pivot, too. I know because we all talk, we’ve hung out, and I’ve ridden in the arena when they were riding.

[Pinto.powerhouse]

Oh boy! Now I’m confused. I just turned 15 and still have heaps to learn. I ride western and always thought my horse was meant to plant one hind foot when they spin/pivot but never really considered which, inside/outside hind. I won’t be doing any of that with archer regardless because he’s doing just fine as a trail and pleasure horse but I guess I’d better be learning the difference.

[J-Lu]

@Pinto.powerhouse

Oh boy! Now I’m confused. I just turned 15 and still have heaps to learn. I ride western and always thought my horse was meant to plant one hind foot when they spin/pivot but never really considered which, inside/outside hind. I won’t be doing any of that with archer regardless because he’s doing just fine as a trail and pleasure horse but I guess I’d better be learning the difference.

They can only turn when the inside leg is planted!

[Scribbler]

@Pinto.powerhouse

Oh boy! Now I’m confused. I just turned 15 and still have heaps to learn. I ride western and always thought my horse was meant to plant one hind foot when they spin/pivot but never really considered which, inside/outside hind. I won’t be doing any of that with archer regardless because he’s doing just fine as a trail and pleasure horse but I guess I’d better be learning the difference.

Years ago I sat and watched a girl practicing Western side pass with her horse along a ground pole. I think this was in hand.

Sometimes he was bent away from the direction of travel, that is in shoulder in position. Sometimes he was bent towards the direction of travel, that is half pass position. Sometimes he was just straight not bent.

The girl clearly had no idea he had different bends.

Not surprisingly he found it easiest bent away from the direction of travel (shoulder in) and hardest bent towards the direction of travel. That makes sense because shoulder in is a much easier move that you can start at walk very early whereas half pass requires much more development.

It was clear she didn’t realise why he could do the sidepass easily one time and struggle with it and fall out over the pole the next time.

My dressage coach took a break from watering the arena and we leaned on the fence and watched her. I said she doesn’t have the faintest clue about bend? And my coach said, nope.

The moral of the story is, western riders will greatly benefit from learning the basics of traditional dressage lateral work which will clear up a lot of mysteries about how horses move.

You may still find yourself required to do it all wrong in western but at least you will know what you’re up against .

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[RainWeasley]

@JB

I merely stated I don’t understand why the show ring requires such a planted inside foot, when that is not natural to the horse. It’s not something they would do on their own beyond a single instance of them heaving their front end over and out of the way of someone or something.

To be fair, I HAVE seen lots of horses do a pivot, planting one of the back legs, without needing to avoid something with their front end, including ones that hadn’t been taught it. What I haven’t seen many horses do is a turn on the forehand pivoting on that front leg, which is also something Western riders teach. I actually think that is harder on the horse’s legs than a pivot off the hind leg, but that is a total opinion.

And most if not all of those discplines have bastardized some part of the useful movement of the horse to suit man-made aethetics. There is zero similarity between today’s WP or HUS ring, and a horse who is actually a pleasure to ride and can go all day on a working ranch.

I COMPLETELY agree with you here. I hate the modern western pleasure and HUS. There is a lady near me that trains horses for that, and she posts videos of them going with their heads so low that it looks like their knees are about to smash into their jaws. I hate it so much. When I first started riding, I thought about trying WP because my first horse, a QH mare, had the easiest natural jog and lope that looked exactly like the rules said it was supposed to, you could sit it all day if you wanted. And then I watched the AQHA shows and realized that I did NOT want her gaits to become that. So we did team penning instead, and eventually LL eventing :lol:

[Palm_Beach]

@J-Lu

They can only turn when the inside leg is planted!

It is correct to pick up the inside hind during a turn. What you don’t want is your horse walking forwards or backwards during a turn. In trail, you sometimes have to turn inside a small 8’ box, and you have to turn and move both the front and hind end to avoid touching the sides of the box.

[Palm_Beach]

@Scribbler

Years ago I sat and watched a girl practicing Western side pass with her horse along a ground pole. I think this was in hand.

Sometimes he was bent away from the direction of travel, that is in shoulder in position. Sometimes he was bent towards the direction of travel, that is half pass position. Sometimes he was just straight not bent.

The girl clearly had no idea he had different bends.

Not surprisingly he found it easiest bent away from the direction of travel (shoulder in) and hardest bent towards the direction of travel. That makes sense because shoulder in is a much easier move that you can start at walk very early whereas half pass requires much more development.

It was clear she didn’t realise why he could do the sidepass easily one time and struggle with it and fall out over the pole the next time.

My dressage coach took a break from watering the arena and we leaned on the fence and watched her. I said she doesn’t have the faintest clue about bend? And my coach said, nope.

The moral of the story is, western riders will greatly benefit from learning the basics of traditional dressage lateral work which will clear up a lot of mysteries about how horses move.

You may still find yourself required to do it all wrong in western but at least you will know what you’re up against .

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

Wow, you watch one rider years ago and decide Western riders do it all wrong?

[RainWeasley]

@Pinto.powerhouse

Oh boy! Now I’m confused. I just turned 15 and still have heaps to learn. I ride western and always thought my horse was meant to plant one hind foot when they spin/pivot but never really considered which, inside/outside hind. I won’t be doing any of that with archer regardless because he’s doing just fine as a trail and pleasure horse but I guess I’d better be learning the difference.

Whenever I had to think about a concept like that, I would imagine getting on all fours and doing it myself. If you think about it, if you try to pivot say, going to the left, with the left hind planted (the inside foot), your right hind will always be stepping forward a bit, keeping the movement going forward. If you tried to plant your right hind instead, still going to the left, not only is it awkward, but you would have to step back to keep the pivot going. A good general rule of thumb, for any discipline really, is you always want to movement going forward. Even going backwards should be thinking about going forwards, it should be active steps and not shuffling. When reiners teach the spin, they walk forward into a circle until the horse begins to pivot. They don’t ever want the horse thinking backwards, that will prevent the horse from being able to pick up the speed for a good fast correct spin. Good trainers, anyways.

[Abbie.S]

OP, you’d be surprised how many horses actively being ridden have some mild arthritis. Heck, I’m not a betting gal, but if I were I’d bet a fair amount of money that 90% of horses over the age of 10 have some degree of arthritis, especially in the hocks. Arthritis is just a fancy word for “joint wear and tear”…and wear and tear comes from age and use.

I don’t need xrays to know my primary riding gelding has some mild arthritis in his right hock. He lets me know. But I don’t stop asking him to use himself properly because he’s got some stiffness - in fact, all the more reason he HAS to use himself properly, to strengthen the muscles that support that joint and stop any further arthritic development that occurred from years of being ridden crooked.

Long story short, if your horse is sound enough to W/T/C, he can do a slow, gentle pivot and all sorts of lateral work with no problem. And indeed, you SHOULD do these things with him. Don’t let the word “arthritis” scare you away from asking the question of your horse - he’ll let you know if it’s too much.

[TWH_Girl]

OP, just ask your vet or trainer. This discussion has derailed into an argument of who knows best instead of an actual answer to your question. Actually I think I did read two people that answered the question…
I do this disengage hq with my horse who has hock arthritis and he’s able to do it pretty well.

[JB]

Agreed. There’s no need to actually pivot, this isn’t SMS, and the goal is to teach the horse functional movement. That function comes with the hind end still engaged in the activity, always, and even then, it’s just easier to teach this thing from the walk, so the hind legs just walk a smaller circle. It’s not like you’re going to be asking for a dozen steps over. The goal isn’t to see how many steps, the goal is to produce immediate and soft movement of the shoulders.

[J-Lu]

@Palm Beach

It is correct to pick up the inside hind during a turn. What you don’t want is your horse walking forwards or backwards during a turn. In trail, you sometimes have to turn inside a small 8’ box, and you have to turn and move both the front and hind end to avoid touching the sides of the box.

Thanks! The western trainers I know work cows and do ranch stuff, although one shows in Western Ranch (I don’t think I have the name of that division right). When working cows, they prefer a horse to pivot because the turn is faster and following the cow is paramount. Oh, they have brought steers to our facility - steer used to train sheepdogs.

I ride dressage and when I work cows with them they always laugh because the steer so easily gets away. The easiest steer gets away because I don’t let my horse pivot. We’re going to do more cow clinics this coming spring with the encouragement of these trainers even though they know my horse doesn’t move like the typical QHs and I don’t want to encourage a pivot. In dressage, that’s counted against you in a turn on the haunches. I don’t want my horse to know “it’s a thing”.

ETA: with my horse’s brain and fear of the world, we’ve gotten so much benefit from participating in the Western trainers clinics. How many dressage horses have worked cattle?! I say the horse has to be completely on your aids in order to do this .Plus, it took my horse a good week to not be 100% terrified by cows. It took about a year for him to be good with them.

[Willesdon]

@Pinto.powerhouse

Oh boy! Now I’m confused. I just turned 15 and still have heaps to learn.

I’m in my 5th decade as a rider and I still have heaps to learn. My observation is that good horsemen have a sharp eye for details, a good ear for listening and an open mind for learning. There are many ways to ride and train a horse, some work well, some don’t, some work well for one human and not for another, some work well for one horse and not so good for another. This discussion is a good example: strong opinions, different experience, many nuggets of wisdom. Your job, OP, is to pick out the nuggets and that is a life long task as a horse person.

If there is someone near you who rides as you would like to ride, who has happy, sane, healthy horses, ask them about yours. It is much easier to give and take advice when the horse is in front of you.

[enjoytheride]

Did the OPs question actually get answered or did it get lost between the pissing match and rants about how awful all western riders are?