Long story short my boy(15 yo Appy×paint) was diagnosed with some mild arthritis in his left hock from an old blunt force injury to the joint before I got him. He’s never taken an off step the year I’ve had him, it’s very insignificant and hasn’t progressed at all (was diagnosed when I got him but I took him on knowing about the injury since I don’t do much more than trails). We haven’t had the joint injected due to the fact that he’s not uncomfortable but he’s on MSM and Glucosamine just as a precaution. I wanted to do some groundwork with him this week since he could use a little learning on ground manners. The only thing I’m worried about doing is yielding his hindquarters? Would the action of pivoting on that leg irritate it or am I just overthinking? It’s not like I’m having him spin a hole in the ground or anything, I just ask for a slow pivot on the hind leg in a full circle. I could ring the vet and ask but I wanted to get some other opinions as well. The only reason I’m just now starting groundwork is because I’ve been unable to ride, I don’t usually wait a year to teach my horse basic manners!
I’m a bit confused here because I don’t see how yielding the hind quarters will cause him to pivot on his hind leg. It will cause him to step under with his hind legs. It could cause him to pivot on his front leg but you can keep him moving in more of a circle or shoulder in on a circle to avoid that.
Some western disciplines want the hind leg planted for a turn on the haunches or pivot or spin but I prefer the dressage model where the pirouette actually has the hind quarters turn on a very small circle.
If you keep some forward motion to both turn on forehand and haunches they build more easily into shoulder in and half pass respectively which is what they are meant to be building blocks towards. Also they help build the belly muscles that way.
So horse should not be pivoting on any leg.
I still can’t say if your horse is sound enough for lateral work, however. I would let him be my guide. You only need to ask for a couple of steps of yield at a time.
Sorry. That was my bad, I didn’t explain that well. I meant more of a turn on the haunches, where the forequarters pivot around the hindquarters. I guess you could call it yielding the forequarters. When he does it he plants on hindleg and steps over in his front legs. The vet hasn’t set any horrible restrictions except of course nothing serious(Barrel racing, reining, high jumps) in fear of irritating to joint. He’s done fine on trails (W/T/C) and even some very tricky terrain. I figured the boy could use some manners though.
I don’t understand why the Western world wants that inside hind leg planted, to be pivoted around. It’s not correct movement for the horse :rolleyes: They are also typically doing this on really soft footing, so the foot is less likely to stick, which makes the leg less likely to torque.
So, don’t ask him to do that. He doesn’t need to pivot, he doesn’t even need to be standing still when you ask him to move over. In fact, the best way to start, or refresh, moving the front end over is out of the walk. Walk and move over, and let the hind legs walk a smaller circle. If the hind legs are not moving, the horse is not engaged, has no impulsion, no energy, and that is the kiss of death.
And you don’t need to do many steps of this, the exercise isn’t “learn to walk around 15 steps”, the goal is only to realize he needs to move his front end over when you ask, immediately and quietly AND softly.
Actually that movement as you describe is impossible. The horse has to pick up the inside hind and put it back down as it spins. The people who actually ride western and are executing this maneuver correctly understand this.
Your question is about overuse injuries. As with any exercise, you have to consider the horse’s overall level of fitness and conditioning, and work him accordingly. You will not harm your horse by teaching him to yield the shoulders, if that is what you are trying to do. You have to decide how many repetitions your horse can handle per session, and work within his ability.
Neither I, nor the OP, were talking about spinning. We were talking about the in-hand work where the horse is asked to move his front end away from the handler - a pivot.
https://horseandrider.com/training/ace-your-pivot
“A correct turn on the haunches starts with your horse stepping across with his front feet, while planting his rear foot on the inside of the turn.”
But even if it was a spin, the ideal is still to have the inside foot planted. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t get lifted, but the goal is to plant
https://equestrianwriter.com/blog/2017/10/02/mastering-reining-spin/
"A proper reining spin should be executed with the inside foot planted as the pivot foot. "
Besides, most of the best Reiners actually DO keep that inside hind planted for most of the spin, so yes, it IS possible 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptMO4eCUtnQ
Yes, it might exacerbate the arthritis. It did with my mini. Go very slow and ask for only one or two steps at a time untll he gets used to it and you are sure he can tolerate it.
Agreed. In western - pivot or spin - the horse plants the inside hind. In english - turn on the haunches or pirouette - the horse maintains the rhythm of the gait and steps with the inside hind.
Because the purpose for a western horse isn’t the same as a dressage. Doing a dressage turn on the haunches/pirouette just isn’t going to be effective for getting down and cutting off a cow. The turn on the haunches for a ranch horse is a build up to cutting, technically. Your cowhorse has to be able to plant that hind end down, then turn and launch off the other direction fast.
And all the western events (barrels, roping, gaming, western pleasure even) are based off the requirements for a good ranch horse. One that is fast, one that is catty and can turn on a dime, one that has gaits that would be easy to ride for hours while driving cattle. Whole different world, totally different movements needed.
Actually outside hind is correct - so RH sticks if pivoting to right (clockwise) and LH if pivoting to left. Here’s a demo of what’s taught/expected in 4-H in the PNW:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyrs0fb1ksQ
I have seen horses who have learned to stick the inside hind but it is not technically correct because you want the foot that is moving to be crossing in front of the planted foot (=forward motion). Planting the inside foot typically results in backward motion (outside foot stepping back and behind).
I would imagine the working riders of Spain and Portugal would see that differently, as they use a dressage foundation for working ranches and cattle. Check out videos of working equitation and the cattle phase.
Wouldn’t that still mean the inside hind leg is the pivot? Going to the right the right hind would be the inside hind leg.
This video shows the inside hind planted and the outside foot moving and stepping under.
It’s immaterial what the current trend is in American western sports. Planting the hind leg on a turn on haunches is harder on the joints than doing a walk pirouette. The OP does not need to do this kind of turn on haunches to get good ground manners.
The Spanish working EQ riders do not do sliding stops and pivots and rollbacks like American trainers and cutting horses. Different horses different styles. You can’t really compare them. Both are effective at working cattle but in a different style.
If you ave pivoting right, the RH is the inside, not the outside, right?
I did actually, right after I posted that I thought about them and looked at the working equitation and spanish horses working cattle and it is still not the same principle, they don’t work their cattle the same way. Still don’t have the same requirements of their horses that cowboys here do. The horses move differently, are built differently, the jobs aren’t really the same though the idea is the same. Both are quite beautiful to watch though. As is dressage. Heck the only thing I don’t like watching are the WP horses.
To answer OP’s question though, I don’t think that asking for a few steps here or there is going to do much. The horse is probably being much harder on itself out in the pasture. I wouldn’t go teaching him to spin or anything, and if you ARE worried about it I would definitely teach a more walking Turn on the forehand. Basically anything where you ask your horse to move off the pressure, wherever you put the pressure, would be good for him, and can be taught without drilling.
If you are pivoting right, the nose of the horse is moving to the right, and the RH is ideally planted or “stuck”. That is the consistent interpretation in 4-H teaching/judging where I come from (as shown in the linked video) and I believe is consistent with AQHA and similar.
The planted foot is the pivot foot - NOT the foot that is moving. Maybe that is where some of the differences in interpretation are coming from?
Are you using the terms inside and outside interchangeable with near and off? Because if you watch the video with sound on, the narrator is quite explicit about which hind foot is planted and which hind foot moves depending on whether the turn is to the right or the left.
