Wiring that mice DON'T like? - It wasn't the mice...

Update: plumber/electric guy came. My two living room thermostats were melted… :eek: TG for circuit breakers. I now have 2 ugly normal thermostats as the decent programmable ones would take too much time/$$ to order before this had to be done, so we have these in for now.

Originally I had measured the baseboard heaters, and checked the details required for local Ace could order me the right programmable ones. Plumber/heater guy says the quality of those ordered stunk. I frankly would not have minded the house burning down as it’s never really suited me and have always wanted to remodel. But certainly wouldn’t want the volunteer firemen at risk, and not lose the cat!!

Well, should be warm for now!
Merry Christmas!!


My heat is electric baseboard, but I also have wood stoves. Live alone, and am gone 5 & 1/2 days a week, so having the baseboard working required.

Came home mid week, and the living room baseboard heat is not working. DS put in programmable timers last year, that worked beautifully - one for the front of the LR, the other for the back. Checked the circuit breaker and it was flipped, but to be honest, not sure if I turned it off, or if it was triggered. When turning it back on nothing. I have had mice munching in that wall over the years, and am pretty convinced they have chewed the new wiring for the timers.

Have a couple timers left still in their packages, and a fellow down the road who should be able to put them in. But afraid it will be for naught if done exactly the same way.

Any suggestions for a tape to wrap them with that will deter the little greedy monsters?

Can’t poison 'em. Ricky Kitty does catch some, but not all, and don’t want him to capture one who has been feeding on the stuff.

Thanks!

Can you put it in conduit?

Not sure - they are 2 wall thermostats flush right next to each other. Haven’t pulled them out yet, but may be tight.

Putting in wires inside metal conduit is the only solution. Mice and other rodents will chew through anything else.

Isn’t there some sort of armored wiring that might fit if conduit won’t? The name escapes me but perhaps someone who knows more about it than me (which isn’t hard as I obviously don’t know much!) will post.

Also wondered if the heaters have some sort of reset button or switch that needs to be dealt with once a breaker kicks them off. Some appliances have that, so seems conceivable a heater might.

Unless you have a new hybrid type of mice they don’t chew through the wire just chew off the insulation. Even small gauge wire would require lot of effort and very sharp teeth for a mouse to chew through. Plus it doesn’t taste very good. But stranger things have happened.

Chewing the insulation off of just one wire will not always cause a short and trip the breaker. If they chew through the hot wire (on a 2 wire + ground circuit the hot is always supposed to be the black wire) and it comes in contract with the ground wire it will short and trip the breaker. If the 2 wires are still touching each other when you reset the breaker it will “trip” instantly.

The real concern with mice/rats chewing off the wire insulation is when they chew off just enough and the hot wire comes in contact just enough to cause a “small” short but not enough to trip the breaker and the wire heats up and can cause a fire. The same way a toaster works. But this rarely happens. The breaker almost always trips.

Not sure what you mean by “timer”. Are you using portable heaters? Baseboard heaters are “hard wired” directly to the breaker box. They have a simple thermostat attached to them on the unit itself. Or a programmable Wall thermostat can be used and replaces the unit thermostat.

A Wall programmable thermostat for electric baseboard heaters are not wired the same as thermostats for an oil or gas furnace, forced air or hydronic (hot water). Those thermostats are low voltage and use small gauge wire. These types of thermostats cannot be used for electric baseboard.

Baseboard Wall Thermostats use “line voltage” 120 or 220 volts high amp. At least the ones that I have installed recently are. These can be a lot more difficult to add “post” installation because a much larger 12-2 wire (conductor) is used. The same that is run from the breaker box. This size wire is not easy to snake through the wall back to the units without cutting holes. This is not a simple DIY job.

I have renovated a number of houses over the year and have done complete rewiring. Rarely ran across wiring that had been chewed up by mice/rats. I think it is because “domestic”, house mice have access to much better things to munch on. In barns they do not and have a harder life. They will chew on whatever is available.

If you are using portable heaters the kind that plug in and using a timer like the kind for lights and such. You have to make sure the timer is rated, made for high electrical demand. Do not use the “common” type that are made for lights they can and will burn out. Or worse cause an electrical hazard. You have to find ones that are made for portable heaters.

You have to use something like this, 15 amp and rated for 1500 watt space heats and A/C units.

http://www.amazon.com/Instapark-Heavy-duty-Mechanical-Grounded-Polarized/dp/B00O3H03LW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1448213704&sr=8-2&keywords=appliance+timer+3+prong

That’s the long tutorial. There is no simple retro fit to protect the wires inside you walls. As others have said there is no simple “tape” to protect wires inside or outside the walls. Mice rarely bother wire or other things outside of the wall.
You explanation is a bit vague as to what type of baseboard heaters and what kind of “timer” was installed to give sound advice.

If you have hardwired baseboard IME it would be pretty much impossible for mice to chew through the wire/s. If they chewed the insulation off they would short and the breaker would trip when reset. I think the “timer” has burned out, failed. Take it off the circuit and see if the heaters work again. But I would not replace it with ones that are not rated for the application.

Thanks for all the information!

The electric baseboard heaters are hard wired behind the walls. The thermostats for those in the living room were hardwired as well with simple thermostats but now programmable. The thermostats seem to still be working as they indicate the correct room temp, and when set higher flash the word “heat” as if they are trying to. Checked the batteries. One failed once due to a low battery and was not readable. But they are reading so doesn’t appear to be the issue.

I definitely have mice in this house. A couple weeks ago heard one nibbling behind the wall just inches from the 2 side-by-side thermostats that control the living room. And when we bought this house, the house had been vacant and the electric stove had failed due to mice. I will say mice generically, but have also seen a small rat variety in the fields, and there were some in the house when we first lived here 15 years ago, and had the woodpile up against the house. The woodpile is no longer near the house, but a couple were outside in the yard this year and found some in bucket traps. So that is a possibility. :dead:

The hard thing is, the walls are all heavy wooden walls as this used to be a ski/bike shop. It’s not like we could cut a hole in the sheet rock and repair and paint. :frowning: Am hoping the wiring is broken near the thermostats and something else can be used if we install something similar - why I asked about the tape.

I’ve learned mice love certain kinds of plastics - work in insurance claims and have heard it discussed that it depends on the brand/model of car if they like the wiring.

Even had a Lily Pulitzer coffee mug with a soft plastic lid, and left it in my car, and they loved the lid! :rolleyes:

There are huge fields planted across the road from me, and only a couple of houses in the area, so guess the field mice head for the 2 houses across the street. I’d keep some feral cats outside, but am around so infrequently. And the critters really hadn’t been inside the house in any great number. I don’t leave much out for them to find. But did hear that one munching away by the thermostat. Can’t think of another reason why just the electric baseboard heaters in this room don’t work. The others do.

But, gumtree, maybe, also the thermostats aren’t the best for this set up? I ordered them from the local Ace Hardware, and we searched the specs - I was told they were what I needed.

Plaster of Paris, or concrete, mixed with flour or cornmeal…it’ll kill the little beasts, but isn’t toxic.

I know I am alone on that front, but sticky traps work well…:o

But yeah, metal conduit…
But if they are chewing the wire to the heater, no telling what else they had their teeth sunk in.
Rodents habitually chew, I don’t think taste has much to do with it, but the need to find a suitable surface to keep the teeth in line.

Metal clad (type MC) cable.

I remember your house now that you referenced it being an old ski shop. I think I made another long winded comment on something you wanted remodel.

If you have the make and model of the thermostat you installed I could look, it up and check out the wiring diagram and give you a better idea of how to go about trouble shooting.

But as I said I doubt very much a mouse has eaten through the wire and “cut” the circuit. I am a big believer in the problem-solving principle known as Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor).

Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation is. Occam’s razor applies especially in the philosophy of science, but also more generally.

With that in mind I have found that the most likely “simple” problem and fix is a loose wire connection somewhere. If wire nuts were used to splice there is a good chance that is where the problem is. I have run into this a number of times. Everything looks good when done, nuts are tight etc. the circuit works close everything up. A couple of days, weeks later no power. A wire came loose in the “splice nut”. It is more likely to happen in multi-wire splices. If there wires are secured with a screw connection make sure they are really tight.

Wires on high demand circuits can and do get somewhat hot. So they expand and contract and work themselves loose. I have experienced all the above. On my work and that of others, the ones that are supposed to be licensed pros. I have found more problems on the later.

So, I would go back and check all of the connections to start with. Having and knowing how to use a Multi-tester makes things easier and faster to figure out.
I installed these last year. Very easy to install and program. No batteries needed they are powered off of the line voltage.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Honeywell-5-2-Day-Baseboard-Programmable-Thermostat-RLV4305A/100566648

I checked out these which replace the simple thermostat mounted on the baseboard. But considering that baseboard heat works by convection, the heat rising and drawing the cool air in from the floor I wasn’t too sure how accurate they could be. But they are programmable and don’t require running any wires through the wall. They don’t have as many “event” settings as the one above.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Cadet-Smart-Base-240-Volt-5-1-1-Programmable-4-Events-Day-Baseboard-Thermostat-in-White-SBFT2W/100495411

Yup, I know what you mean about hearing the little buggers behind the walls. Grew up in and have lived in lots of old houses. You get used to it. Out of sight out mind. I really hate squirrels in the attic above my bedroom. Easier to get rid of then mice in the walls.

I had a cabin in the foot hills of Colorado that I built out of recycled materials. Used old cedar fence boards for siding. The first spring I was spending some quality time there I was awoken every morning with a rapping on the outside wall. I’d get up go out and look, nothing. This happened for several days. Really annoying. One day I saw a bird fly off and settle in a nearby tree. Turned out to be a Woodpecker trying to make a nest in the soft wood siding. Wasn’t easy to persuade him/her to go somewhere else.

“I’ve learned mice love certain kinds of plastics”

So do wildlife. The first time I went to do some climbing in the Canadian Rockies and pulled into the trail head parking lot there was chicken wire laying around. We were thinking this is kind of strange for people to be leaving “garbage” like that. We were in a pretty remote area. While checking out the trail head sign there was a “note” about the chicken wire. Turns out the local wildlife especially the Canadian Marmot which are quite large and friendly like to chew on the rubber break lines that connect the metal lines to the break calipers. The note instructed people to wrap the chicken wire around their break lines. Sure glad we read that note because it would have been a BIG hassle to come out the mountains a couple of weeks later and find out our car had no breaks. We were WAY off the main road and a LONG way to the nearest parts store.

[QUOTE=Alagirl;8411869]
Plaster of Paris, or concrete, mixed with flour or cornmeal…it’ll kill the little beasts, but isn’t toxic.

I know I am alone on that front, but sticky traps work well…:o

But yeah, metal conduit…
But if they are chewing the wire to the heater, no telling what else they had their teeth sunk in.
Rodents habitually chew, I don’t think taste has much to do with it, but the need to find a suitable surface to keep the teeth in line.[/QUOTE]

Good “tip” the natural natural rodent killer. I forgot about that. My mother would make it up. Added some peanut butter also. I don’t remember the formula but I bet it can be found on the internet.

Sticky traps work well. But the draw back is the fact the little bastards aren’t dead. I used them. But I am a bit of a bleeding heart. They are stuck fast but squealing when I picked up the “trap”. Felt so bad for them I took it outside got some alcohol to free their little feet. Wasn’t too easy either. Should have just dropped them in a bucket of water.

Which is another “trap” that works well. Take a wood dowel glue a little “platform” in the middle. Put some peanut butter on it. Place the dowel on the top of a bucket of water. Make sure the suckers can climb up the side or drop down on to the bucket. When the walk across the dowel to the peanut butter perch to eat some the dowel will roll and drop them in the water. They don’t tread water too well or for too long.

[QUOTE=LittleblackMorgan;8411910]
Metal clad (type MC) cable.[/QUOTE]

This is great stuff to use in new construction or an “opened up” remodel. But Romex cable, the plastic cover wire is hard enough to pull, snake through walls. This stuff is near impossible without cutting holes all over the place.

Have an electrician put wiring in conduits. Put mouse traps out for the mice. Congratulations on not poisoning mice - it doesn’t just poison mice - it poisons birds of prey, snakes - cats- dogs. That is why we ONLY use mouse traps.

Thanks again for all the tips. Would be great, gumtree, if is was a few loose screws. :wink: Sadly, no call back from neighbor electrician, so have to try to see if I can catch him in between Dr appt first thing and leaving to go back to where I work for the week.

Hadn’t tried the Plaster of Paris brew yet. :wink: Will have to stir up a concoction. Also hate the sticky traps - still have a few left from when I picked them up on sale. While away during the week have a fear of the cat stepping on one and having to wear it until I come back for my mid week cat/house check. :ambivalence: I do have the bucket traps - learned about them here! :winkgrin: - what I had out in the yard near the garbage cans where I found a couple of the small rats.

However, just woke up off the couch to change over my last load of laundry, and there was a little cast off, previous alive play toy for the cat, lying next to the mop behind the washer. To remind me to check back here for solutions.

Guess it’s that time of year.:rolleyes: Will let you know what we find.

[QUOTE=gumtree;8411997]
This is great stuff to use in new construction or an “opened up” remodel. But Romex cable, the plastic cover wire is hard enough to pull, snake through walls. This stuff is near impossible without cutting holes all over the place.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know :slight_smile: I’m an electrician. Someone had asked what it was called.

After the damage those manure heads did in my house…laughing while they picked the traps clean…nope, not feeling remorse. Not one bit!

This is our first fall/winter in our house, and are getting re-acquainted with mice and country living.

We’ve had great success with electronic (battery operated) traps. We’ve got them in the house, garage, workshop, and barn. They are working much better than the snap traps or glue traps.

While initially expensive, they quickly make up for it!

https://youtu.be/myWuTto_pY8

Heat is fixed with “normal” thermostats for now - read edited first thread. :yes:

One armored wire is Romex, I think.

I had two security cameras bite the dust and it was mice, right where the cameras are wired into, on the porch soffit.

The mice ate clear thru the two wires, but they are low voltage little wires.

I was thinking about this tread the other day while rerouting a bunch of wires through a wall. Not because of mice but it got me thinking.

Seems to me if the manufacturers could come up with a a wire that taste bad to mice and rats they could charge extra, a good advertising point to use in old houses, barn and make a lot of money. “No Chew old house and barn wire”

So, why did the thermostats melt? Undersized or just poorly made?