What’s the difference between withdrawing from a class vs scratching a ride?
As a warm-up steward, all I wanna know is are they coming for their ride time, or not. :winkgrin: :lol:
I could be wrong but I always thought that scratching was to not show up for your ride and withdrawing was when your ride is going terribly and you excuse yourself.
And while we are on the subject, whom do you tell you’re scratching, when you do decide to scratch?
I have only been competing in dressage a short while and have never yet scratched. But I’ve been the rider after/in place of a scratch many times, including this past Sunday. I often get remarks from the judge or scribe (or both) when I ride in and I give my number, and state that I’m out of the order, due to a scratch.
Comments like: “Ahhhh you don’t look like a Linda” or “Thank you, nobody told us” or something else that indicates they didn’t know about the change until I came in for warmup.
For this next show, in two weeks, I signed up for two classes in one day with the intention of likely scratching from whichever ride time is more difficult logistically.
And I don’t know who I am supposed to tell, after I decide. And I keep forgetting to ask my trainer or my more experienced barn mates and then I saw this thread.
What’s best?
Tell the show office - show manager if you can find them. One important thing to note - if you DON’T tell them and become a “no show”, they can drop you from any other rides that day. So if you just decide “I’m going to bag my first ride, things aren’t going well in the warm up”, you do need to let show management know if you are hoping to do your second ride.
Tell show management you intend to scratch.
Scratches can be done any time after you’ve sent in your entries. Some folks must scratch because a horse came up lame, rider got injured, family emergencies and whatnot.
One withdraws when the ride is going south. In that case, you let the judge know it’s just not your day…
I’m guessing this is in response to dressage at devon where riders withdrew.
I don’t know the CDI rules (did a quick google but could not find the answer) but I believe once you have to actually enter and ask to be excused (as opposed to just scratching like at a normal show). Does anyone have a link to the rule?
My guess is that the riders who withdrew were unwilling to ride in the extreme weather conditions (ie unsafe footing or wind, etc). So entered and asked to be excused.
I’m wondering if there is a difference between being excused and withdrawing.
Yes, in specific reference to DAD where Lisa Wilcox and Allison Brock of the US both “withdrew” from the GPS. I was not there today, but am guessing they did not want to risk injury to their horses to due footing becoming sloppy, etc.
I did a quick search as well before posting the question here, and of course pulled up a lot of articles on Totilas, Parzival, etc getting “withdrawn” from further classes at a show due to injury. But could not find direct definitions/clarifications as to the difference of “scratch” vs “withdraw.” I wonder if withdraw is more permanent, in other words, you are completely withdrawing from the competition vs scratching one class (more like what Silverbridge is looking to do).
Would love to know!!
In my experience/understanding:
Scratch - never intended to ride test. These can happen from anytime after closing date to minutes before your ride. You should always tell the show secretary, but in the rare cases where you feel like you have to scratch in the warmup (I’ve only seen this with a horse that came up lame or a totally unridable/dangerous horse), you should tell the warm up steward as well, ask them to radio the show secretary for time’s sake, and then confirm with the show secretary when you can.
Withdraw - This only happens when there is a jog - e.g. CDIs (FEI sanctioned international level shows, like the classes at Devon referred to above), if a rider decides not to ride a test after the jog but before presenting the horse to the judge, it is considered a withdrawal (not a scratch), as they were already accepted to compete at the jog. This can also happen after a rider rides one test at a CDI, then decides not to ride other classes they had entered. I believe FEI rules state that once you withdraw, you can’t return to competition later, but I’m not positive.
Retire: When you start your test, things go to heck in a handbasket and you do not feel you can safely continue for you/horse. You stop (as best you can!), salute/wave politely at the judge. The judge will give you permission to leave the arena (often just returning the wave/salute, these situations often involving bouncing flouncing horses!). Afterward, the show secretary will usually be able to give you a test sheets with your scores up until the point you retired. Vast majority of cases are clear cut, very rarely a judge might be concerned that someone is retiring because they don’t want a lower than average score and won’t grant permission to stop test.
Eliminated: Something during the test happened that caused you to be eliminated. This could be all 4 feet leaving the arena, too many off-course errors, lameness, or illegal equipment found at the tack check. The judge will ring the bell, then tell you you were eliminated. Depending on the circumstances, the judge may allow you to continue and score the movements, but they won’t be tallied and you won’t be placed.
No Show: The ride time came, but the horse didn’t. The judge will ring the bell, wait 60 seconds, and then ring again to ‘eliminate’ the rider who wasn’t there. Don’t be this person! It’s considered a big disrespect to the show management and judge. Even if you don’t ever come onto the show grounds (horse injured at home, you aren’t making show, whatever it is) it’s considered a courtesy to always call the secretary and inform them you are scratching for the weekend.
No show. ; Judges don’t ring the bell when there is no one around the ring.
We just put the sheet away and wait for the next rider. (We can usually call the steward or someone at the show office.
Scratch: No score will be recorded.
No show: This one I’m not sure but you might get zero/eliminated for your score.
Eliminated: It is recorded as such.
Retired: No score will be recorded.
Withdrew: No score will be recorded.
If you are in the ring, it is always better to retire than to be eliminated.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;8342376]
No show. ; Judges don’t ring the bell when there is no one around the ring.
We just put the sheet away and wait for the next rider. (We can usually call the steward or someone at the show office.[/QUOTE]
I have scribed for judges who will ring the bell even if no one is around or on their way. And I’ve never scribed for any judge who called the office to ask about a scratch or no show. I scribe a lot, different judges and shows do things different!
I do both - ring the bell for a no show - what if they are on their way to the ring and the steward didn’t notice? At a 6 ring show that can easily happen. They then have 45 seconds (not 60 as mentioned above) to get themselves onto the centerline.
I have also had my ring steward call the secretary to ask about scratches if it seems rides are coming hit or miss or it is near a break or the end of the day and we see no one in warmup.
[QUOTE=dotneko;8342478]
I do both - ring the bell for a no show - what if they are on their way to the ring and the steward didn’t notice? At a 6 ring show that can easily happen. They then have 45 seconds (not 60 as mentioned above) to get themselves onto the centerline.
I have also had my ring steward call the secretary to ask about scratches if it seems rides are coming hit or miss or it is near a break or the end of the day and we see no one in warmup.[/QUOTE]
I don’t judge rated shows, schooling only, but I do the same thing - I ring the bell. And yes, 45 seconds - sometimes I even watch the clock:cool: I HAVE had people miraculously come running into the ring at the last minute - the bell sometimes wakes people up.
BTW Alibi - no show is a no score, not a zero, except in the case of a situation where two tests are averaged, then you get a zero for the test that wasn’t ridden. And that is really more a paperwork issue, it isn’t reported to USDF that way.
I was trying to work my way from the warm up arena to the show arena through several junior riders who were blocking my way. There was a short ramp down from the warmup that was essentially a chute. The judge rang the bell and the TD had to clear the path so I could trot down the ramp and directly into the court. Very poor management by the ring steward and I thought pretty cheezy on the judge’s part since she could see the traffic jam.
Ditto.
Scratch - USEF competition: you decide not to show sometime between when you enter the show, and when your time actually comes, and you tell show management
No Show - USEF competition: you decide not to show sometime between when you enter the show, and when your time actually comes, and you DON’T tell show management
Withdrawn: FEI competition: you present your horse at the competition (in-barns, or jog) and at some point after that decide not to compete
I’ve always been curious about people who enter a show and choose their classes, but at the same time plan on scratching at the last minute, and forfeiting the entry fee.
Yet we complain about the cost of showing…
[QUOTE=Mardi;8343840]
I’ve always been curious about people who enter a show and choose their classes, but at the same time plan on scratching at the last minute, and forfeiting the entry fee.
Yet we complain about the cost of showing…[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about people who cancel all their classes at a show?
I do know a lot of people who will sign up for several classes each day at a multi-day show. Depending on how the horse is, they may do all the classes, or do a few and then scratch others.
[QUOTE=Mardi;8343840]
I’ve always been curious about people who enter a show and choose their classes, but at the same time plan on scratching at the last minute, and forfeiting the entry fee.
Yet we complain about the cost of showing…[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t assume “we” all complain about the high cost of showing, when scratching based on logistics or readiness factors is used in this way.
Personally I would not complain (publicly) about the costs. I was over fifty before I ever entered a dressage show, and at this point (my second show season of my life) I have goals. Sometimes entering two classes a day but being prepared to drop one of them is the most logical way to do the entry, in order to show our best in one of the classes, or to get a qualifying mark.
Up to now I’ve always been able to go ahead and do both based on fitness and the time the tests were scheduled. The entry is complete four to eight weeks ahead of the show. The times aren’t known until two days to a week prior to the start, and things can happen during those preparation weeks that indicate the plan was an overreach (like rider time off the horse for a medical reason, or unexpected heat waves, or heavy storms, etc)
At this point I accept that it costs what it costs and that having the option to drop out of a paid entry is part of the process. The GMO still gets the money.
Also it’s not like there are recognized shows every weekend in my State. I can’t just turn around and enter somewhere else to get the scores. This Fall, for example, there are only two. So I need to sign up, weeks ahead, for the classes I’d ideally like to ride and then evaluate options after the day sheets come out.
Maybe it’s wrong but that’s the way that works for me.
[QUOTE=Silverbridge;8343978]
I wouldn’t assume “we” all complain about the high cost of showing, when scratching based on logistics or readiness factors is used in this way.
Personally I would not complain (publicly) about the costs. I was over fifty before I ever entered a dressage show, and at this point (my second show season of my life) I have goals. Sometimes entering two classes a day but being prepared to drop one of them is the most logical way to do the entry, in order to show our best in one of the classes, or to get a qualifying mark.
Up to now I’ve always been able to go ahead and do both based on fitness and the time the tests were scheduled. The entry is complete four to eight weeks ahead of the show. The times aren’t known until two days to a week prior to the start, and things can happen during those preparation weeks that indicate the plan was an overreach (like rider time off the horse for a medical reason, or unexpected heat waves, or heavy storms, etc)
At this point I accept that it costs what it costs and that having the option to drop out of a paid entry is part of the process. The GMO still gets the money.
Also it’s not like there are recognized shows every weekend in my State. I can’t just turn around and enter somewhere else to get the scores. This Fall, for example, there are only two. So I need to sign up, weeks ahead, for the classes I’d ideally like to ride and then evaluate options after the day sheets come out.
Maybe it’s wrong but that’s the way that works for me.[/QUOTE]
Whatever works is what happens.
What is a ‘VET OUT’? Is that if a horse doesn’t pass the jog? There was one rider with two horses in the same class, and both horses didn’t compete and the note was Vet Out.
