Withers

[vineyridge]

Would someone talk to me about withers in performance horses?

The US Cavalry Meister, General Chamberlin, who wrote The Bible in my opinion, says that since all of the muscles that control the front end, the neck and the back are attached to the withers, high withers permit longer and broader muscles which, in his opinion, are GOOD THINGs.

Certainly TBs often have Shark Fin Withers–I’ve got one who definitely does. But when you look at breeds with extravagant front ends like Saddlebreds and many WBs and Tennessee Walking horses, really high withers aren’t often found.

Please discuss. Other than being a PITA for saddle fitting what are the benefits and detriments to high and not high withers?

[alliekat]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6044317]
Would someone talk to me about withers in performance horses?

The US Cavalry Meister, General Chamberlin, who wrote The Bible in my opinion, says that since all of the muscles that control the front end, the neck and the back are attached to the withers, high withers permit longer and broader muscles which, in his opinion, are GOOD THINGs.

Certainly TBs often have Shark Fin Withers–I’ve got one who definitely does. But when you look at breeds with extravagant front ends like Saddlebreds and many WBs and Tennessee Walking horses, really high withers aren’t often found.

Please discuss. Other than being a PITA for saddle fitting what are the benefits and detriments to high and not high withers?[/QUOTE]

What a timely thread. My mom and I were just discussing this this afternoon while looking at her gelding, who shall we say, has an amusement park ride for withers. I am very interested to read and share what you find out about it.

[lizathenag]

event horses with withers

I think I read recently in COTH that the advanced horses somewhere all had impossible to fit withers and we all awesome athletes.

My OTTB has massive withers and is an athlete.

[netg]

Note: This is definitely only an opinion based on a very small amount of comparison and study of a small sample size of horses, with no scientific facts involved!

I think length of withers matters as much as height may. If you look at a lot of the horses with extravagant front ends, their shoulders don’t move much - the knee just comes upward. I don’t know the structure which happens there. But for the horses who really have mobile shoulders, reasonably prominent withers of a good length - so ending far enough back to put the saddle decently behind the front leg, for example - seem to be common. Humerus length and angle seems to affect flat kneed vs. bent kneed movement more, but withers seem to affect if the horse can reach OUT with the front legs.

My horse has pretty respectable-sized withers, and they shift ridiculous amounts as he lifts his front end and lowers his back. It actually feels as if the saddle is going to slide off his back end or something because he comes up in front so much.

I actually look for horses whose shoulder angles look different if weight is slightly shifted in different photos - they typically have decent sized withers and freedom in their shoulders.

Here’s the Allie Conrad blog which discusses withers:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/white-pants-big-withers-and-thoroughbreds-are-all-rage-burghley

[oneyequine]

Strictly in my *opinion only. A higher wither of course indicates a longer shoulder blade. I would say its not so much the extra muscle that the longer blade encourages, but the levering effect of the extra bone length of the shoulder blade that may be of most benefit. A long shoulder blade in theory can also collate with a number of other positives such as a shorter athletic back, well sloped and longer pasterns (For certain types) etc etc. It may interest some that based on my experience only, a horse can break part of its wither but be back performing within a short period regardless (Not requiring a full spell).

[stolensilver]

I think the correlation between high withers and 4**** eventers is more to do with most 4**** eventers being TBs and many TBs have high withers. I don’t think it is something to look out for if you are trying to buy a young horse who has the potential to become an outstanding eventer. More important is to look for a horse with a high % of TB blood.

[oneyequine]

[QUOTE=stolensilver;6044579]
I think the correlation between high withers and 4**** eventers is more to do with most 4**** eventers being TBs and many TBs have high withers. I don’t think it is something to look out for if you are trying to buy a young horse who has the potential to become an outstanding eventer. More important is to look for a horse with a high % of TB blood.[/QUOTE]

Agree. The wither set (back or forward) may also arguably generally be more important than a high wither. But one may say that there are so many variables with how the shoulder blade fits in with the overall horse - that the most important thing is how it matches the overall proportions and type of horse. IMO this even even varies within disciplines - and perhaps more so in eventing considering the varied skill-set requirement.

[EqTrainer]

Evaluating this is further complicated by the fact that many horses have atrophy on each side of their withers from poor saddle fit (news flash folks! you have to fit the width of the back, not the withers, first!) which makes their withers appear to be much more prominent than they really would be if not damaged.

Having said that, I would agree that prominent, long withers often go along with a good functional topline and an athletic horse.

[columbus]

Gotta say, the withers are not the shoulder of the horse it is the spine that the withers cover. These spinal processes stand up above the withers and the muscle attachments then connect the spinal process to the shoulder blade. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnbvCwlIOTI&feature=related
None of these bits of the horse exists seperately and you have to look at the whole picture. Also the eventers withers stands up so noticably because the eventers at upper level have very little fat. The sport suits long flat muscled horses at the top and that makes the withers more prominant as well. PatO

[columbus]

Also it may be true that a long scapula…making a long shoulder…is a charecteristic of jumping talent but it is the structure of what we think of as the shoulder which consists of many bones, attachments, and joints as a whole that needs to be thought about. PatO

[oneyequine]

[QUOTE=columbus;6045759]
Gotta say, the withers are not the shoulder of the horse it is the spine that the withers cover. These spinal processes stand up above the withers and the muscle attachments then connect the spinal process to the shoulder blade. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnbvCwlIOTI&feature=related
None of these bits of the horse exists seperately and you have to look at the whole picture. Also the eventers withers stands up so noticably because the eventers at upper level have very little fat. The sport suits long flat muscled horses at the top and that makes the withers more prominant as well. PatO[/QUOTE]

Of course, although by nature the horse is balanced and part of this balance includes possessing a shoulder blade that also aligns by a shorter proportion with the wither. Of course many other factors in fact all over the horse also relate to the shoulder blade, but this does not mean it should not be studied in isolation, and with how it collates with the co-joined bones and the horses overall balance. May depend how serious you are about conformation.

[oneyequine]

[QUOTE=columbus;6045769]
Also it may be true that a long scapula…making a long shoulder…is a charecteristic of jumping talent [/QUOTE]

I would think just as many may argue a long shoulder is not actually an indication of high jumping talent, rather more so dressage talent.

[EqTrainer]

Mmmm, I would disagree. I associate a long shoulder with jumping potential and a shorter, lighter shoulder with dressage talent. But I am talking about hunters, not jumpers, so ideally they hack as well as jump nicely.

[M_O_Connor]

If all (or even most) athletic horses were shaped similarly, it would be easier to draw conclusions. But they aren’t, except that hunters or dressage horses are ‘of a general type.’ This, however, doesn’t hold true for jumpers–look at the individual horses that reached the final four at WEG–they were each very dissimilar from each other.

To take just the withers and make a generalization is impossible, as everything is relative. What’s really important is how each part of the horse’s body functions in relation to all the other parts.

[Home_Again_Farm]

@M. O'Connor;6045912

If all (or even most) athletic horses were shaped similarly, it would be easier to draw conclusions. But they aren’t, except that hunters or dressage horses are ‘of a general type.’ This, however, doesn’t hold true for jumpers–look at the individual horses that reached the final four at WEG–they were each very dissimilar from each other.

To take just the withers and make a generalization is impossible, as everything is relative. What’s really important is how each part of the horse’s body functions in relation to all the other parts.

This. :yes:

[oneyequine]

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6045901]
Mmmm, I would disagree. I associate a long shoulder with jumping potential and a shorter, lighter shoulder with dressage talent. But I am talking about hunters, not jumpers, so ideally they hack as well as jump nicely.[/QUOTE]

Agree, IMO a long shoulder may be more apt for a hunter due to movement considerations.

[columbus]

I don’t think you can make any broad statements. To see pictures of the great jumpers…especially when there was less influence from warmblood selectors trying to select what they thought jumpers conformation was…the pictures of the great TB jumpers were crazy poorly conformed. I was thinking this was because they were tossed from hunters for looks and they either then jumped big or disappeared. If they jumped big then it didn’t matter what they looked like. What I noticed what the pure length of the whole shoulder assembly and often a promenent forechest too. The shoulder assembly could be very straight in angle but it had to be long and the neck came out high from the chest and from the top of the withers. To see Jones Boy is a class in poor conformation…upright pasterns as well were not uncommon. I think if you can imagine Stroller jumping in Mexico City…no long shoulder and not much withers as are not common in the excellent jumping Connemaras either. Don’t forget how much selection for conformation and type is done by warmblood selectors. We see better conformation in sport horses because of them not because excellent conformation is needed for sport. PatO

[oneyequine]

[QUOTE=columbus;6046426]
What I noticed what the pure length of the whole shoulder assembly and often a promenent forechest too. The shoulder assembly could be very straight in angle but it had to be long [/QUOTE]

It seems that your talking about the humerus AND shoulder blade. In this case a short shoulder blade may be preferred as that leaves a great distance for a longer humerus (Which both essentially have to fit within the distance from elbow to wither (or close to girth depth). In this case the shorter shoulder blade also allows the shoulder joint to be placed higher - and therefore produces the preferred jumping longer humerus which has to stretch from the elbow join to the shoulder joint. This shows how the length of the shoulder blade is often directly related to the length of the humerus (In an opposing manner) and like wise this combination must also fit with matching proportions elsewhere within the horse so there is plenty to learn and consider.

A super long shoulder blade may result in a shorter humerus which is not generally not preferred for high jumps.

[bloomingtonfarm]

Jumpers are found in many types and many shapes but the high withers is something that has always strike me as a common feature on upper level jumpers even when the shoulder is rather straight. Of course there is exception.

The following is much better said than I could, being french:

''The withers are an important attachment for ligaments and muscles that extend head, neck, shoulder, and back vertebrae, and are also insertion point for muscles that open ribs for breathing.

High withers provide a lever for the muscles of the back and neck to work together efficiently. As the head and neck lower to extend, the back and loin muscles correspondingly shorten or lengthen. The backward angle of withers is usually associated with sloping shoulders, which provides good movement of the shoulder blade. This makes it easy for the horse to engage in collection, lengthen, round its back for jumping, or extend its shoulder for improved stride length and speed.

If the withers are too high and narrow, there is a chance that a poorly fit saddle will impinge on withers and slip back too far, creating pain especially with the rider’s weight. Performance and willingness will suffer. ‘’

[vineyridge]

THANK YOU, Susanne.

That quote is exactly what I was looking for. It explains so concisely and well just what the withers do and how important they can be. It also explains why Lucinda Green would call them the suspension bridge. And since there is no bony connection between the scapula and the rest of the horse, the withers as attachment point are crucial.

Thank you, also, whoever posted The Horse video on the front legs.