Wobblers

[beowulf]

@IPEsq

No, I disagree. Papers from over 10 years ago might say that the lesion would be in the upper thoracic if the symptoms were only in the pelvic limb gait and if all 4 legs or front end only, then the lesion would be cervical. But that is not really the case. But note that I am talking about these gait abnormalities that are not responsive to flexions, blocks, or treatment of the limb. Grade 2 neurologic gait deficits can certainly include a bunny hop canter (and/or cross cantering or skipping behind), trouble with lead changes, and toe dragging, as well as knuckling over when stopping or slipping out behind. You might also see circumduction of the outside hind on a circle (from mild to obvious) and things like that without noticeable front limb deficits. Front limb deficits may also not be lamenesses at all but could include trouble backing (front feet will drag), wearing of the front toes excessively, difficulty going up and down hills, tipping or having trouble with changes in footing.

Disagree with what? We’re saying the same thing (as far as I can tell - you even quoted my post about how I said it can transpire behind).

Are you saying it is more common to have inconsistent gait abnormality behind with c-spine issues early on? I wasn’t referring to end-stage - it’s pretty common end-stage for ataxia behind… But, it’s been pretty consistently drilled in my head that traveling forelimb lameness is a primary early symptom of c-spine issues. Exception being rope-walking or subtle unevenness behind, which have been present in several horses I’ve seen diagnosed with c-spine issues.

Toe dragging is classically a suspensory issue. Losing footing/slipping behind is classically a UFP or stifle issue. Bunny hopping is classically an SI issue. And all three issues (toe drag, slipping behind, and poor canters) can manifest when the horse has a suspensory injury (depending on severity) or PSD.

While you(g) can’t always think linearly in terms of diagnosing a lameness, when you hear hoofbeats you usually think horses first before zebras, no?

[IPEsq]

Yes, it can be an early symptom. Either a subtle gait abnormality or a sign of CVSM, which can be congential and affecting the very young horse (typical “Wobblers” syndrome). I’m not sure what you mean by “end stage” since many of the symptoms I mentioned are grade 2. High grade Wobblers got its name from the ataxia. A fast growing young horse can go from 0 to a significant grade on the neuro scale in no time. Again, I don’t get the distinction between “early” and “end stage”. It’s either spinal cord compression or it’s not. It’s either severe compression (grade 6, recumbancy) or it’s not. If it’s not compression, that doesn’t mean that nerve roots aren’t affected by bony changes and/or localized inflammation. But in this case, it’s probably not “Wobblers” but a different issue like Cervical OA, spurs, abnormal formation of vertebrae without spinal column narrowing, etc. These things can potentially degenerate or destabilize to the point of pressure on the spinal cord.

Even with front limb lameness associated with C-spine stuff, it really looks different than true lameness if you watch closely. You might get an intermittent head bob, but I could see the difference in at least 3 horses with this presentation between the proprioceptive gait abnormality and a true lameness in the limb. It just doesn’t behave quite like a lameness. Same can be said for the mild proprioceptive lameness of the hind end if you take the whole horse into account and you also have negative findings for the usual workup. Not sure why you are saying I would assume something neuro when I say you can have the same gait problems as with a limb problem except that it won’t flex, block, respond to local treatment, or show up on imaging. I’m not going to assume that Bristol Bay’s vet didn’t consider a limb or pelvic problem before deciding it was neurological in that case. Because I’m not going to assume that low grade, early signs of neurological deficits can’t show up in the pelvic limb, because they sure can. I have seen it with my own eyes, and it can stay low grade for years. Horse I just mentioned was that way from when my friend bought him at 4. Didn’t start showing more advanced issues/persistent abnormalities until age 14-15 when front end abnormalities also showed up.

[beowulf]

@IPEsq

Yes, it can be an early symptom. Either a subtle gait abnormality or a sign of CVSM, which can be congential and affecting the very young horse (typical “Wobblers” syndrome). I’m not sure what you mean by “end stage” since many of the symptoms I mentioned are grade 2. High grade Wobblers got its name from the ataxia. A fast growing young horse can go from 0 to a significant grade on the neuro scale in no time. Again, I don’t get the distinction between “early” and “end stage”. It’s either spinal cord compression or it’s not. It’s either severe compression (grade 6, recumbancy) or it’s not. If it’s not compression, that doesn’t mean that nerve roots aren’t affected by bony changes and/or localized inflammation. But in this case, it’s probably not “Wobblers” but a different issue like Cervical OA, spurs, abnormal formation of vertebrae without spinal column narrowing, etc. These things can potentially degenerate or destabilize to the point of pressure on the spinal cord.

This is a blanket statement, but many c-spine issues are degenerative and progress over time – which is what I mean by catching it “early”, or, “end stage” as in right before the horse is euthanized (if the owner waits that long).

That and, a horse can present drastically differently day to day; on day 0 of compression/CA/etc versus day 16. I went through it myself with the horse mentioned above. :yes:

Regarding the gait abnormality appearing different in a lameness versus prorprioceptive/neuro case, I agree – but the poster didn’t provide videos, and going off of the symptoms the poster originally mentioned, those symptoms are common clinical signs of PSD. Which is why I asked BB why their vet suspected neuro first since I was sure there was a piece I was missing :yes:

Here’s the original post -

@Bristol Bay

OP, I feel so bad for you. Such a young horse.
My vet noted mild ataxia in a long ago exam. I don’t remember having a conversation about it or thinking much of it. Recently he started losing his footing, dragging his toes, resting his hind leg heavily in my hand as I pick out his feet. He just wasn’t right. The vet was out Friday and agreed with my suspicions that it’s neurological in nature. I haven’t had any further testing done.

He’s 17 and I’ve had him for ten wonderful years. It’s heartbreaking to feel him declining. Vet says he doesn’t look bad and is rideable for light work, so I tacked up and took him for a walk yesterday. After half an hour he was dragging more and just felt wrong.

Right now we’re starting on a course of NSAIDS to see if that helps him. Where do we go from here?

Has anyone had a myelogram or the basket surgery done? Is it unrealistic to consider it for a 17 year old pleasure horse?

[Lunabear1988]

Well for what it’s worth, my horse had toe drag in the right hind the whole time.

He also had a weird head movement during a canter transition (on the lunge.) This was all thought to be young horse weakness/saddle fit. Of course then later we found everything else going on so not sure what we can say was from the neck, the feet or the back.

Horses are so tricky.

[Bristol_Bay]

@Lunabear1988

Well for what it’s worth, my horse had toe drag in the right hind the whole time.

He also had a weird head movement during a canter transition (on the lunge.) This was all thought to be young horse weakness/saddle fit. Of course then later we found everything else going on so not sure what we can say was from the neck, the feet or the back.

Horses are so tricky.

My horse lately has had an “unusually wide stance” in front, and I realized today, he’s always kind of stood that way. Now I suspect it’s not to pick up the guy in the next stall, but likely to maintain balance. He stands very close behind, almost stepping on himself.

He’s been on NSAIDs the past week with no improvement. I’m getting a second opinion Monday.

[Lunabear1988]

@Bristol Bay jingles for you guys. Never hurts to get a second opinion! Usually worth it.

[Bristol_Bay]

@Lunabear1988

@Bristol Bay jingles for you guys. Never hurts to get a second opinion! Usually worth it.

Thank you!

[J-Lu]

Dear OP,

I am so sorry to hear this and I can’t imagine going through what you are going through.

I have only known one horse with Wobblers. He was a Negro baby many years before Valegro was born. He was bred by the owner of Negro in Germany and purchased in CA. She purchased the horse from the person in CA. When he was started, he couldn’t balance when his feet were held by farriers and he was diagnosed with wobblers. It is worth noting that she had a lot of money for training and diagnostics and work-ups. He had apparently a milder case and she kept him, but kept a close eye on him. She had him in professional training and he was quite successful in life (went to FEI), but she showed me how he couldn’t balance well when one foot was lifted. He was a particularly laid-back Negro baby.

It sounds like your guy has a more severe case if he has already fallen. I agree with others that if your vets think it is only a matter of time, it is better to euthanize him before he hurts himself or you, and while he is still having a happy life. It is SUCH a hard decision to make because you want to “give him a chance”, but if he’s already stumbling/falling and your vets agree, I agree with letting him go before he can’t understand why his body isn’t working.

Hugs from afar for you.

[SusanO]

I have not had a horse with Wobblers but I had one with EPM. This was before Marquis and the treatments we have now AND EPM was not on everybody’s mind. So yes he had neurological problems that were progressing and not really treatable. He was never lame. The first thing I noticed was one day he was trotting across the pasture and he “forgot” to bring one front leg forward. So he fell, rolled and jumped back up and trotted off like nothing had happened. I thought " Boy that was weird". But the horse was always very reactive and difficult so I didn’t think much about it. He had several other tripping accidents but not to the point that he fell down. I was not riding him at all at this time. Due to other behaviors that he had - stall walking for one - I blamed theses episodes on something he had done to his feet/ legs stall walking.

Fast forward to a few months later. I had to move him to another self care place because the current barn was up for sale. One day I drive up to feed and he is down under the wood fence. I am thinking " That was a bad place to roll, now your hind leg is under the bottom rail and you can’t get up". But I called the vet to give him a look over to make sure this accident had not injured him. She quickly came to the conclusion that he had neuro problems. I wondered why all of the sudden he was falling down and couldn’t get up. She told me that this was not the case - that horses can compensate for neurological deficits really well. Until one day the deficit is so bad and they can no longer compensate and people think that the horse has gotten this problem overnight. Not so. So we decided to treat him with what was available at the time. I think SMZ’s.

Then he went down again. Not next to the fence and it took two people to get him up ( he was a small horse). I managed to get him to their vet clinic which was pretty nerve wracking because I was afraid he might go down in the trailer. Then he sat there for a WEEK because they wouldn’t euthanize because the guy that came to bury the horses could not get into his fields to bury them because of all the rain we were having. At this point he was leaning on his stall walls to stand up. I was pretty livid as this was not fair to the horse but he would not have made another trailer trip anywhere. Finally they put him down. I didn’t care where his body went. I just wanted him out of his misery.

So… Hindsight being what it is… I wish I had put him down back at the onset of his problems. He wasn’t going to get better. Although he seemed happy he was a very reactive prey animal and I am sure he was stressed about losing control of his body even though I could not see that. So I am not going to tell you what and when. Only you can make that decision. But even though they are not “lame” they can still be stressed and uncomfortable. And it can get bad quickly and bad situations can develop that could have been avoided. That is what I tell myself looking back.

[Lunabear1988]

@J-Lu thanks. I honestly wasn’t thinking it was Wobblers. I knew it was a possibility with his age but we really didn’t think that would be the diagnosis. Even my own vet said she was shocked.

I really thought we could keep him going in some way. I just didn’t think things were THAT bad but I guess when they start falling, things do take a different tone.

It’s very unpredictable. He can seem so fine and then fall. So I do understand the vets thinking.

[Lunabear1988]

@SusanO oh I’m sorry that you and your horse went through that. We are so lucky to have more knowledge about this stuff these days.

I definitely don’t want to have his last days be in agony. And the nature of this, we have no way of knowing when that day will come.

He is going to be euthanized this coming Wednesday. Then he will be used in a Wobblers study for the local teaching hospital. Until then he’s being spoiled like crazy.

[hoopoe]

Thank you for allowing him to become a teacher. I did my internship at WSU when they were developing the Bagby Basket . I still , to this day, remember a horse that was generously allowed to be a test subject. The experience and knowledge I gained has stayed with me.

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Lunabear1988

[He is going to be euthanized this coming Wednesday. Then he will be used in a Wobblers study for the local teaching hospital. Until then he’s being spoiled like crazy.

I will be thinking of you on Wednesday. You’ve made such a hard decision but sounds like the right one for your horse. Thank you for spoiling him like crazy for the next few days and then allowing him to help others learn.

{{Lunabear}}

[J-Lu]

@Lunabear1988

@J-Lu thanks. I honestly wasn’t thinking it was Wobblers. I knew it was a possibility with his age but we really didn’t think that would be the diagnosis. Even my own vet said she was shocked.

I really thought we could keep him going in some way. I just didn’t think things were THAT bad but I guess when they start falling, things do take a different tone.

It’s very unpredictable. He can seem so fine and then fall. So I do understand the vets thinking.

My heart goes out to you.

[beowulf]

@Bristol Bay good luck today.

@Lunabear1988 thinking of you this week, hugs for Wednesday. ((hugs)) My heart goes out to you and your boy.

[Lunabear1988]

Jingles needed. My horse wouldn’t eat his daily bucket of alfalfa and beet pulp. Just acting lethargic and weird.

Barn owner thinks I’m nuts and that he’s just “full or tired.”

Doesn’t seem like colic. They did just have his neighbor move… depressed? He just doesn’t strike me as that emotional of horse tbh. And he’s usually a food hound. Like spins in his stall nickering. Not today.

I’m waiting to here from my vet. Obviously I know we are putting him down but I’m still concerned. I want his last days to be comfortable.

Can this be wobblers related? He did have mud, I think he rolled for the first time in awhile
I wonder if he hurt his neck? Idk this is odd.

[skydy]

@Lunabear1988

Jingles needed. My horse wouldn’t eat his daily bucket of alfalfa and beet pulp. Just acting lethargic and weird.

Barn owner thinks I’m nuts and that he’s just “full or tired.”

Doesn’t seem like colic. They did just have his neighbor move… depressed? He just doesn’t strike me as that emotional of horse tbh. And he’s usually a food hound. Like spins in his stall nickering. Not today.

I’m waiting to here from my vet. Obviously I know we are putting him down but I’m still concerned. I want his last days to be comfortable.

Can this be wobblers related? He did have mud, I think he rolled for the first time in awhile
I wonder if he hurt his neck? Idk this is odd.

Oh, I’m sorry. Maybe today is the day? You know your horse so I wouldn’t let BO influence you. See what the vet says. Hang in there.

[Lunabear1988]

@skydy trying banamine. But yeah it might… I’m worried about him.

[skydy]

Thinking of you and your horse. You’re a good owner and he’s a lucky guy to have you looking out for him.:yes:

[drawstraws]

OP, so sorry you’re going through this and hugs for whatever was going on with him today. Our first homebred was a wobbler, we first realized something was odd about her at around 6 months old. If she pulled back, she’d often flip herself backwards. We didn’t realize it at first but it seemed like she just lost where her hind end was. Had the vet out and they diagnosed epiphisitis and said to slow down her growth. It didn’t seem to really do much of anything so after a long, long time we just fed her like normal. Just before she turned two I took her to the clinic because it had started getting worse, was having a hard time with the farrier and just before her vet appointment she had a hard time getting up one morning and basically flung herself around her stall to get on her feet and ended up with a swollen hock. Vets did a myelogram and the vertebrae at the base of her skull was crooked. Was told there was basically nothing they could do and she would never be rideable and the more she grew the more dangerous she would become. I had her put down right then, I hated to make her come out of the anesthetic and fight to get to her feet just to euthanize. My heart wishes I’d known enough to ask more questions but my brain also knows the outcome would have been the same. She would have been 26 this year and I still miss her terribly.

Hopefully it helps a tiny bit to know you’re not alone…