Wolf teeth, bits, and dormosedan allergy new Update #31

[NaturalSelection]

Background: I have a 6 yo WB gelding, bought him as a weanling, raised him on our hobby farm, started him undersaddle myself. I am an experienced adult amateur, mid-40s, I seek out trainers but am not working with anyone consistently.

This horse has a severe reaction to dormosedan and xylazine. First learned of this when he was 3 yo having his first dental appointment with a specialized equine dentist at our farm. After HALF dose per his body weight IV, horse became severely ataxic, heart rate became erratic and extremely slow, and body temperature spiked to 103F. We called my standard vet clinic for emergency instruction, administered dexamethasone, cold hosed (it was August) for an hour until he recovered. No dental work that day!

I proceeded to start the horse undersaddle at home in our roundpen in a rope halter. Admittedly, my progress has been slow, but my goals have changed, I’m mid-40s, work full time and still building infrastructure on house and hobby farm.

Standard vet advised that he would only try dental work on the horse in the clinic to make sure he had every possible solution available if things went sideways. I hauled him over last fall as a 5yo. My vet was very careful using the minimal amount of sedative, but horse had similar reaction. Vet was able to float and pulled the left wolf tooth, but couldn’t extend the sedation to pull the right wolf tooth. Furthermore, vet said we should do sedated work sparingly and recommended only doing dental work every other year and said we may never get the second wolf tooth extracted because it’s big and well developed and the horse can’t be heavily sedated.

So I’ve been riding in a rope halter because I don’t want to cause a problem/pain from using a bit. I ride in my roundpen, but this is a big, strong, athletic young horse and my other riding areas are 20 acres of unfenced hay field. I can ground drive the horse around the field, but riding in the big wide open brings out the forward in all my horses. I have a mild mechanical hackamore but it really doesn’t feel like it has more sensitivity or control than the rope halter. I haven’t tried a bit, but my vet thinks it should be fine, even with the wolf tooth. I have my reservations, all the other horses have owned have had wolf teeth removed.

Questions? Thoughts? Recommendations? Anyone have experience using a bit on a horse that can’t have wolf teeth pulled? Should I just work on getting better and better with the bitless options?

*edited for clarity

[NancyM]

Back in “the day”, I had an equine dentist who was NOT a vet, who floated teeth and extracted wolf teeth WITHOUT drugs. And got it done. I’d look for someone like that. Because… I’ve had a lovely, kind and quiet 3 year old filly, who threw herself over backwards in the grooming stall, because of the pressure of the halter on the sides of her cheeks pressing into the points on her teeth… they had not yet been floated nor wolfies removed. There were points in there. I would not put pressure of the halter or rope halter onto the sides of the horse’s face without dentistry done first. It’s not only a bit that will do that, a halter of any sort will do it too. Apparently. Good luck!

[colorfan]

Genuine question. I realize wolf teeth are pulled because they do cause issues but what did people do before modern drugs?
Do wolf teeth just not bother some horses?

[Posting_Trot]

You might try a softer (literally) bit like a Nathe or HS Duo. There are other pliable bits as well, including a leather bit. They’re less likely to clang into a wolf tooth, but obviously ever horse has its own degree of sensitivity.

I’ve certainly had horses have their teeth floated without drugs; I wonder if it’s possible to use a local painkiller on a horse? Did the vet give you no options aside from simply doing the extraction in the clinic? You might want to discuss the issue with the vet in greater detail.

ETA: Sorry, I went back and read your first post more carefully. I’d emphasize trying a softer bit in this situation and see if that will work.

[NaturalSelection]

Thanks for sharing, I have thought about the cheek pressure and teeth points as well!

[NaturalSelection]

@colorfan I’m genuinely curious about this as well!

[NaturalSelection]

Philosophically, I’m also thinking why are bits more effective than rope halters or hackamores for control. Is “sensitivity” really different than easier to inflict pain with the same amount of pressure?

[endlessclimb]

Inflict pain, not necessarily (but certainly possible with a bit that doesn’t fit or one designed for pain).

More uncomfortable / painful to pullor fight against if horse is out of control? Certainly.

More nuanced communication? I would think so.

[NancyM]

A tight “tie down”, and “show them who’s boss”, and send them for dog food if they are a “flipper”. It still happens.

[Jackie_Cochran]

About bits being more effective. What I have found after over 50 years of riding is that the horse CAN communicate with its tongue, if the rider has light enough/sensitive enough contact.

With a snaffle or bridoon I find that a center roller in a 3-piece bit can mobilize the horse’s tongue. The horse’s tongue moves when it moves is often because the hyoid bone is directly linked by muscles to the poll, the first vertebra, the scapula, the humerus and the sternum. When these bones are moved by other muscles it effects the horse’s tongue.

A bit that is connected to the rider’s hands with harder, more unforgiving contact stops this communication and tends to numb the skin of the horse’s mouth. Sharp yanks, either through meeting the bit when the rider’s hands don’t move forward enough OR when the rider yanks the reins on purpose HURT, especially from a loose rein.

So light forgiving supple contact encourages the horse’s tongue to move like it does without the rider. This gives me a split second early warning about some things (not all) and this gives me a chance to adjust my hands or seat or legs to ride out what is coming if I am unable to humanely prevent it.

As for riding your horse while avoiding the wolf teeth:

Clear this with your vet/horse dentist first. Show the gear you want to use and ask their opinion about it.

I have ridden with 6 different bitless “systems”. I would hesitate to use 5 of these on a horse with wolf teeth because of the sides of the nosepiece going over at or near the front of the molars.

The only bitless system I would dare to try on such a horse is the Light Rider Bitless bridle https://lightriderbridle.com, a modified Scawbrig. I would spend several short sessions experimenting with this bitless from the ground. I do not hold out much hope for it working but it is the only one I would even dare to try on a horse with unresolved wolf teeth.

You might want to look at the Meroth Bit (google it, several sites have them.) This is a bit that does not need a headstall at all (avoiding the wolf teeth) and should remain stable in the horse’s mouth.

The gauchos (cowboys) in Argentina and Uruguay used a Bocado, not a bit, when they broke a horse. From the picture I have it looks like a thin strap of rawhide wound around the lower jaw of the horse, under the tongue, two or three times, tied underneath the jaw, with 2 added small rings for the reins. The Bocado does not need a headstall either.

Good luck and I hope your horse gets comfortable with his teeth and I hope you do not have to wipe out your savings to get there.

[IPEsq]

Dorm and xylazine are the same class of drugs. Is there nothing in a different class that might help get that other wolf tooth out? Ace and local anesthetic?

[trubandloki]

@NancyM

Back in “the day”, I had an equine dentist who was NOT a vet, who floated teeth and extracted wolf teeth WITHOUT drugs. And got it done. I’d look for someone like that.

I can not imagine having a tooth pulled with no medication at all. I certainly would not expect my horse to put up with that either.

[NaturalSelection]

Yes, I recognize Dorm and Xylazine are same class of drugs. We haven’t tried Acepromazine on this horse. I’ve never seen it used as a sedative strong enough for dental work, but I’ll ask my vet about his thoughts.

Has anyone heard of general anesthesia and horse on the table for a tooth extraction?
*edit for spelling error

[NancyM]

Amazingly enough, it wasn’t that big of a deal with most of them. The wolf teeth are not deep rooted. They come out pretty easy on a yearling. Maybe not if it’s an older horse… we didn’t do older horses. They were all done as long yearlings.

[Pico_Banana]

There’s a thread on the h/j forum that had a link to this https://masego.se/products/utan-namn-21aug-_09-11

It’s a bridle that also allows for a second rein attached to the noseband. I wonder if you could try sometime this in your round pen. That way you could put a bit in but not use it at first (use just the side pull rein) and then gradually start taking up contact with the bit to see how he takes it.

[Simkie]

@NaturalSelection

We haven’t tried Aceoromazine on this horse. I’ve never seen it used as a sedative strong enough for dental work, but I’ll ask my vet about his thoughts.

Maybe it’s worth pinging a large referral clinic on how to approach this. They’re more likely to have seen something like this before then a vet in solo practice, and have a (much) bigger toolbox.

It sounds like all that’s been tried here is dorm and xylazine? There’s a lot out there that’s not dorm and xylazine.

[Bonnie2]

Any idea what they used to geld him? There are other sedatives and anesthetics. A little surprised your vet didn’t consider/offer alternatives. This is why it is always a good idea to do wolf teeth when they are gelded. Personally, I would deal with the wolf tooth sooner rather than later. You will always wonder if a performance issue traces to the wolf tooth. And as he becomes more educated and you start to have goals for him, you don’t want to take an unscheduled vacation for dental surgery. Good luck!

[NaturalSelection]

Good question on the sedative for his gelding procedure. I don’t know, he was gelded by the breeder as a 6mo old colt just before I got him. I really appreciate all the responses here and encouragement to solve this problem. I’m going to call the vet school.

[IPEsq]

That’s why I suggested you might need some sort of local numbing agent as well as a tranq.

4 yo at my barn just got a wolf tooth extracted this week (was barely visible, one on the other side hasn’t erupted yet). He all of a sudden was having trouble taking a bit and didn’t want anyone going near his muzzle. It had quite a root on it for a wolf tooth, I assume due to his age. Owner showed it to me like look at this big ol’ root on this teeny tooth! But still tiny in comparison to most equine teeth. Horse also got a float so he was sedated. It is still a much less involved extraction compared to a lot of other teeth, so I feel like you’ve got to have some options.

[NaturalSelection]

Update:
Y’all got me motivated to renew my efforts to have gelding’s remaining wolf tooth pulled so here’s an update to our story:

First, I sent my saga to the U of MN Vet School. They declined on the basis of this being an adult tooth and referred me to Midwest Veterinary Dental Services in Racine, WI. The veterinarian at Midwest Veterinary Dental Services explained that unless the wolf tooth is causing problems due to the anesthetic complications with Dorm and Xylazine, they don’t recommend attempting to extract it. She said I should try a non-metal bit and see how horse reacts. I asked about what they recommend for regular floating and they said to try to find someone who does a manual float with no/minimal drugs. They have given me one contact, but this person is nearing retirement and there aren’t many other folks doing manual floats these days.

I did buy a few different bits and he seems ok in a plastic semi-flexible Mullen so far.

Need to reach out to manual float contact to see if he can help with regular maintenance. Otherwise I guess we just try to work with what we have now.