Wool vs. foam panels, high end saddles, and repaneling

[Orbit_Orange]

I recently got a new horse and now need a saddle to fit him. After talking to an independent saddle fitter and some brand reps, and doing some reading, I’ve decided that I would like to go with wool panels as I believe they will be better for my horse. I ride at an A circuit hunter jumper barn and literally everyone in my barn rides in a trendy French saddle brand (brands which usually have foam panels). I know this is a terrible reason to choose one saddle over another, but I’ll definitely feel like the uncool kid if I don’t also get a trendy French saddle. I’ve ridden in CWD and Devacoux and I do like the way they ride, but my horse’s comfort and fit are really my priority.

The independent fitter I talked to suggested County and Black Country, and I’m planning on getting a County rep to come out to demo some of their saddles and see how I like them. I’ve researched and would consider some other wool flocked brands as well. I’ve also looked into the possibility of getting a trendy French brand flocked or repaneled with wool. As far as I can tell, Butet is the only such brand that currently offers wool panels as an option, but a new Butet is probably not in the budget. I’ve also spoken to a Butet rep who says if I buy a used Butet through them, they will do a foam to wool conversion and “guarantee the fit.” I’m not sure if this is a good idea or not. I’ve read all the previous threads on this topic and spoke to a few people about foam to wool conversions. For some people it seems to work out great, others say it can’t/shouldn’t be done or that it’s too difficult to fit thicker wool flocking in thinner panels originally designed for foam. The independent saddle fitter I talked to basically said “it doesn’t work that way” to just convert foam to wool, but I know others who will do it. The CWD rep I have been in contact with says they “never” do custom wool panels or convert foam to wool, and sings the benefits of foam all day long, although I know others on this forum have said that CWD will sometimes do wool.

Can anybody share their experiences converting foam to wool? Will any of the other high end French brands offer wool in new saddles or foam to wool conversions in used saddles? And is this even a good idea? Or should I just go with a British brand? For people who show hunter jumpers on the A circuit NOT in high end French saddles, what do you have and like? I’ll apologize in advance for caring at all about what’s trendy.

[floppyammy]

@Orbit_Orange

For people who show hunter jumpers on the A circuit NOT in high end French saddles, what do you have and like? I’ll apologize in advance for caring at all about what’s trendy.

I ride in a Stubben Phoenix Elite for my big shouldered, straight-backed horse. There is a not so fun story behind this.

I bought my current gelding as a 3 year old. At the time that I bought him, I was riding in a CWD, which had served me well for years and was starting to be very much worse for wear. As my gelding matured, I decided it was time to get him a big boy saddle of his own, not one that he had inherited from his now-retired older brother. At the time, there was a french saddle company that was being heavily marketed in my barn. Like a sucker, and even though I KNEW BETTER I fell for the “Ooooh shiny new French Saddle” hype. Fast forward 9 months later. My young gelding, who had never had any issues, is now BOLTING when I try to dismount My body worker had already suggested to me that my beautiful brand new saddle did not actually fit my horse, and was in fact pinching his shoulders. I wasn’t ready to admit it, until I could not actually dismount my horse. I got out an independent saddle fitter, who basically said that the saddle tree was the wrong shape (curvy tree) for my horse (straight backed) and he could make some adjustments that could make the fit better, but that ultimately it was the wrong saddle for my horse. Luckily, I was able to get back 75% of my purchase price for the saddle, which I thought was very fair. I worked with 2 independant fitters and purchased a 2nd hand wool flocked saddle. Horse and I lived happily ever after.

Long story short, buy the saddle that fits the horse. Oh, and you too.

[fivestrideline]

As far as “The Look” goes, County looks very huntery. So does newer Stubben. Get a generic or even secondhand trendy cover and no one will be the wiser

[NaturallyHappy]

I was able to find a used Butet that was wool flocked. They are out there.

[Bristol_Bay]

Prestige and Amerigo.

[Orbit_Orange]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ve heard so many horror stories of the expensive French brands not fitting the horse they were made for. I wonder if “custom” saddles not fitting is a problem encountered with English and German brands–I have mostly heard about it with the pricey French brands. My preference would definitely be to buy a saddle that already fits him–and me–but I’m finding it easier said than done and a little overwhelming.

[Orbit_Orange]

A decoy cover–I love it!

[Railbird]

I have heard horror stories of every brand of custom saddle not fitting the horse when it arrives. I do not know that I would ever order a custom saddle for a horse who had a specific fit need, I would only buy something I could put on them and buy that exact saddle. The majority of horses can find a french saddle with foam panels that they are comfortable in, and I would start with any pre owned options where you can see the actual saddle on your actual horse and get the horse’s opinion. I value how the horse feels about a saddle more than a fitter of any sort.

I do have one that didn’t do well with the standard tree shape that many of those brands share, so I purchased a butet with the actual wide tree (versus just thinner panels) and wool flocking per a saddle fitter suggestion. I don’t know if it really helped what I was trying to fix with him all that much, but it is definitely more stable and comfortable on my end.

It’s interesting to me there is a whole sect of saddle fitters who swear that the french saddles and foam panels that are almost universally used at the top levels of our sport are bad for horses, as though someone with their whole career and hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line would let their horse be back sore because they don’t think a stubben is trendy enough.

[fivestrideline]

I agree wholeheartedly. So many stories of poorly fitting custom saddles - or saddles not coming as ordered. But that doesn’t mean the saddle itself won’t fit SOMETHING.

I’ve heard good things about Prestige and Amerigo. They look very fashionable for the hunter ring as well.

[trakehners]

@fivestrideline

I’ve heard good things about Prestige and Amerigo.

I have an Erreplus, which is the brand founded by Prestige’s former R&D director. If Prestige saddles are anything like mine, 10/10 would recommend. I’d also recommend Erreplus always and forever, but there aren’t a ton of them in the US so not a huge used market and they aren’t cheap.

Bliss of London is a good brand if you’re looking for customizable and wool flocked at a reasonable price point. My best friend has one for each of her horses (one she rides in hunters, the other jumpers) and half my barn has a Bliss jump saddle across a mix of jumping disciplines (I already had my jump saddle when I moved or I’m sure I would’ve ended up with one too).

My only piece of advice would be to see what your horse thinks. Mine hates foam panels. I’m not joking when I say that. I’ve tried foam-paneled saddles on him that seemingly fit fine and they make him mad. Plenty of horses are obviously fine with foam panels, but it’s worth keeping in mind that they have their own preferences (and yours might hate wool and love foam, who knows). To echo @Railbird, how the horse feels about the saddle is the most important thing.

I also wouldn’t recommend converting foam panels to wool—a friend of mine tried it with her old saddle and it absolutely ruined it and was not good to her horse. You need a panel with a lot more internal volume than foam ones have in order to get the appropriate amount of wool into it.

[HipNo34]

@Railbird

It’s interesting to me there is a whole sect of saddle fitters who swear that the french saddles and foam panels that are almost universally used at the top levels of our sport are bad for horses, as though someone with their whole career and hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line would let their horse be back sore because they don’t think a stubben is trendy enough.

So, while we’re here.
As a returning rider from the era of “one saddle ‘fitting’ every horse I ever rode,” I was fascinated to watch an independent fitter work about a year ago or so. Also fairly well horrified at what I may’ve been putting horses through back in the day – is there a fetal position emoji?

This fitter was 100% Team Wool, had very little that was good to say about French saddles, foam, close contact saddles (ETA: I can’t bring myself to buy that bridge) – and, as I recall, was also critical of pro panels.

I haven’t had a chance to see them work on their on return visits to the barn, so haven’t been able to ask them to repeat what it was about pro panels (maybe people loading up with excessive half pads, etc, to make it work)? I’ve googled like a lunatic but haven’t found the answer to “saddle fitter’s criticism of pro panels.”

Anybody?

[Bristol_Bay]

I would just add that there are custom saddle nightmare stories about many brands of saddles. Just look at the dressage forum and those are all wool flocked saddles.

I have had two French custom saddles. One fit my horse, the other never did despite two trips back to the saddle shop in Florida, and both of them were crotch-hostile. I sold them both at a loss of a few grand. (One of them bought by a kid in my barn who loves it.)

I ended up with a CWD that I bought used. It fits me and my horse. I can ride without feeling attacked from below.

The point is to buy a used saddle you can try first. I would even warn against buying a new one just like the one you tried and loved because horror stories abound about that as well.

Saddle reps will tell you the saddle will feel comfortable once it’s broken in. Don’t believe them.

[HJdaydream]

I’ve ridden in only French saddles for the past 8 yrs. When I found out my current one didn’t fit my new horse, I started to look around and landed on Renaissance. They are Italian made but were designed by Frederic Butet and have the French ‘look’. Best part is you can get wool panels for no extra cost. They do have some used ones available as well if new is out of budget. Link below to who I purchased mine from:

https://www.dfwtackexchange.com/butet-saddles

[Scribbler]

@Orbit_Orange

I recently got a new horse and now need a saddle to fit him. After talking to an independent saddle fitter and some brand reps, and doing some reading, I’ve decided that I would like to go with wool panels as I believe they will be better for my horse. I ride at an A circuit hunter jumper barn and literally everyone in my barn rides in a trendy French saddle brand (brands which usually have foam panels). I know this is a terrible reason to choose one saddle over another, but I’ll definitely feel like the uncool kid if I don’t also get a trendy French saddle. I’ve ridden in CWD and Devacoux and I do like the way they ride, but my horse’s comfort and fit are really my priority.

The independent fitter I talked to suggested County and Black Country, and I’m planning on getting a County rep to come out to demo some of their saddles and see how I like them. I’ve researched and would consider some other wool flocked brands as well. I’ve also looked into the possibility of getting a trendy French brand flocked or repaneled with wool. As far as I can tell, Butet is the only such brand that currently offers wool panels as an option, but a new Butet is probably not in the budget. I’ve also spoken to a Butet rep who says if I buy a used Butet through them, they will do a foam to wool conversion and “guarantee the fit.” I’m not sure if this is a good idea or not. I’ve read all the previous threads on this topic and spoke to a few people about foam to wool conversions. For some people it seems to work out great, others say it can’t/shouldn’t be done or that it’s too difficult to fit thicker wool flocking in thinner panels originally designed for foam. The independent saddle fitter I talked to basically said “it doesn’t work that way” to just convert foam to wool, but I know others who will do it. The CWD rep I have been in contact with says they “never” do custom wool panels or convert foam to wool, and sings the benefits of foam all day long, although I know others on this forum have said that CWD will sometimes do wool.

Can anybody share their experiences converting foam to wool? Will any of the other high end French brands offer wool in new saddles or foam to wool conversions in used saddles? And is this even a good idea? Or should I just go with a British brand? For people who show hunter jumpers on the A circuit NOT in high end French saddles, what do you have and like? I’ll apologize in advance for caring at all about what’s trendy.

I would suggest doing some self education on the topic of saddle fit so you understand the importance of the tree, which is hidden inside the saddle. The tree determines wither gullet width, back to front “rocker” curve and side to side “drape.” The tree needs to be a good basic for for your horse, and then the panels can be tweaked to optimize fit.

Most saddle brands have one basic tree that they offer in different either gullet widths, meaning that no brand can be made to fit every single horse, not even every normal average horse.

The tree fit is more important than whether the panels are foam or wool. However many saddle fitters have a preference for wool because it is cheaper and easier to adjust without sending the whole saddle back to the manufacturer.

Both foam and wool saddle brands generate horror stories of reps over promising and selling horse owners saddles where the tree will never be a good match for that horse, no matter how much the panels are tweaked.

The wool panels are much thicker than foam panels, so if you take a saddle with foam panels that fits your horse and swap to wool, it won’t fit him. Obviously if Butet made you a wool saddle semi custom they would account for that. And it makes sense that a factory set up to make foam panels doesn’t have the material to do wool. It’s very different they aren’t interchangeable, it’s not like stuffing a sofa cushion.

The French foam thing has come along quite recently, I’ve only been a returning rider for just over 15 years, and when I returned wool paneled County saddles were the h/j ideal. Then Voltaire and CWD grabbed the market with saddles twice as expensive in the last decade.

As far as channelling your inner middle school child and wanting a saddle just like all the other girls, I’d do some serious introspection and drop that mindset immediately because that way lies misery and spending a lot of money on stupid ideas.

I don’t know if foam or wool is best for your horse, or what brand is the best tree for him. My horse fits Passier like a glove and is good in County but the knowledgable French foam consignment seller said there’s about nothing that would fit her shoulders in those other brands

[dmveventer]

@fivestrideline

I’ve heard good things about Prestige and Amerigo. They look very fashionable for the hunter ring as well.

Amerigo was on my list but I could not for the life of me get in touch with a real person in my area so I gave up. It turned out great because I love my Prestige, the look and feel matches the much more expensive French saddles but with a (somewhat) lower price tag and the adjustability of wool panels. They have a lot of subtle but fancy design elements too, very trendy for the show ring. I get compliments on my jump saddle all the time, and have my eye on this gorgeous leaf pattern for my next dressage saddle:

@HJdaydream

I started to look around and landed on Renaissance. They are Italian made but were designed by Frederic Butet and have the French ‘look’.

Renaissance falls under Prestige so you can try both brands from the same rep. They offer a lot of variety and you can try a ton of different saddles in one fitting to narrow down the right fit, I liked saddles from both lines but the Prestige won out for me.

[IPEsq]

I rode in some Erreplus saddles not long ago for my friend who was considering becoming a rep (and now is). Some of the models definitely were not for me, but overall, the saddles were nice and are still in mind if my horse ever grows out of his wide tree French saddle that I ultimately wound up buying.

A friend of mine has a wool Ideal saddle that she really likes for jumping as well.

I would trust Butet to convert a used Butet that is foam to wool. Because Butet does still make wool panels. You would be replacing the whole panel, leather included, not trying to retrofit something via an independent saddler, which can be done but is more risky, voids any warranties, etc. CWD and some others used to have a wool option at one point in time but won’t do it anymore. I would want to do some more research to see if a Butet tree in general would be a reasonable option for your horse before going down that rabbit hole of looking for one used and then converting.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

I have a spare CWD cover I could send your way

[Orbit_Orange]

@Railbird

It’s interesting to me there is a whole sect of saddle fitters who swear that the french saddles and foam panels that are almost universally used at the top levels of our sport are bad for horses, as though someone with their whole career and hundreds of thousands of dollars on the line would let their horse be back sore because they don’t think a stubben is trendy enough.

I completely agree with this! In fact, I keep going back and forth on foam panels for this reason. But from all my own reading, I like that wool will conform to the horse’s back over time, and slight adjustments can be made as the horse ages, muscles, ect.

I agree with you and @trakehners that the opinion that is the most important is my horse’s. However, I don’t trust myself to correctly interpret his saddle preferences. He’s younger and a greenie, and we’re still a newish pair, so there’s a lot of different factors that contribute into how he’s going on any particular day. I’m not sure I can suss out what’s due to the saddle and what’s not.

[Orbit_Orange]

I actually hadn’t come across Renaissance yet, so thank you for that suggestion. From the pictures they look very nice and similar to what I’m looking for. I’ll have to look into weather I can demo one. And 9 tree options! I like that.

[Ponyplusaninch]

Amerigo. Had mine for a year and have never been more delighted. It has the comfort of the French saddles but actually fits the horse. Just had the flocking on mine touched up, and both of us are happier for it.