Hello everybody!
Im brand new to COTH.
I have a very hot ottb 8 yr old mare. Shes very sweet and mellow on the ground. She is in full training with someone experienced with ottbs. She (trainer) follows Clinton Andersons “Method” and for the most part it seems to be getting through to her. It just seems to take her a long time to come down and be mentally ready to work.
I guess i am here for encouragment and advice. She has only been in training for 4 weeks during that time we have fine tuned her feed program put shoes on her started treating her for ulcers etc.this is a lot of change for a horse in a short amount of time. I know this, and i keep telling myself that she will come around and settle down at least a little, its just very hard to hear negative things and still stay hopeful.
My mare is a stall walker, in general shes nervous, but on the ground shes very easy even around kids and small animals.under saddle she prances, flips her head, occasionally gets light on her front end, is extremely sensitive to her sides being touched, and is often a little moody like ears pinned trys to bite stirrup etc.
The trainer is being positive but is frustrated that its taking her a long time to grasp the subject of letting go of wanting to race. i can understand that but to me a month is not a long time especially for an ottb. This is my first ottb although im a very experienced horse person. Is this normal, for them to take a while to come down?
The negative stuff im talking about are people, mostly other clients of the trainers saying that she (my mare) is crazy and encouraging me to sell her etc. They say this, i feel because they lack knowledge of what causes these behaviors but its still hard to hear.
Ok i know i have written a book here for you to read but any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated as would any supplement,tack, body care suggestions
Thank you in advance!
How long did you let your OTTB down for? Have you tried trail rides on the buckle? Takes time. What are you feeding her?
She has been off the track for about 2 years and i have owned her and turned her out for a year. I did some groundwork with her and rode her a few times in the arena but then she got hot and i kind of went chicken so put her in training. Havent tried trail rides. She just got switched to LMF Gentle Balance and renew Gold. Before that she was on LMF showtime.
This behavior is not “not wanting to let go of racing.” Something is wrong, and she’s trying to tell you something is wrong.
What are you using to treat the ulcers? How long is she turned out for? And do you have a video of her being ridden?
She is not crazy. She’s asking for help, and horses like her need us to listen to them.
Lots of times “hot” and " sensitive" just means the horse has no idea what it’s supposed to do. Horse HAS to learn to accept the bit and leg pressure and if they don’t understand they can get upset…then the rider takes the leg off or drops contact and inadvertently rewards the horse teaching it contact and pressure will stop if it gets upset. TBs are more problematic then the other breeds because they are energetic and unless that energy is directed, get perceived as difficult. That’s particularly true when somebody with a background in said quieter breeds (stock breeds) or a few less ambitious TBs that don’t have recent years of race training takes on retraining an experienced race horse…
Surprised this trainer is getting frustrated with a horse that doesn’t know anything after only 4 weeks. Horse spent better part of its first year under saddle in race training and conditioning and continued in race training and condition for several years, then sat for another year. What does trainer expect time wise in the untraining years of previous training and retraining in another job?
4 weeks is not going to erase years on the track and replace it with a complete new, skill set.
CA is fine but doesn’t replace many, many hours in the saddle 5-6 days a week patiently untraining and retraining. If that trainer is expressing her frustration with the hirse to you at this early point? I’d be looking for another. This can’t be rushed. The owner needs to be patient too.
You might have a fresh horse here too, how often does trainer school horse and how long does she work her? Turnout is good but it in no way replaces a regular work schedule of forced exercise and paying attention to rider commands. They work almost every every day at the track and get lengthy hand walks days they don’t work …that’s what they are bred for.
It can take months to make progress retraining and you cannot use the same techniques that work on a stock bred.
Also something may be wrong. Did you scope for ulcers? If they are really bad, treatment is more than just gastroguard. With mares, I also (not for Ulcers) sometimes try regumate. But mostly it is getting the right feed, turn out and work schedule. I also X-ray their backs and have a good vet work up to make sure no pain as it raise a red flag when they are so different on the ground verses undersaddle.
But in the end…a hotter TB will not be like a quiet QH. Ever. But that doesn’t mean they are crazy or not suitable. Often they are smart and need a good job that lets them go forward. Don’t listen to the other people. A smart forward thinking mare is the best kind. When you get her to understand and you both develop trust…they will go through fire for you.
My mare supposed to be being ridden 5/week. Occasionally she misses a ride and makes it up the next week.
Im suprised that the trainer is already frustrated as well. I feel the same, 30 days is not a long time for a horse like this or really any horse.
She has worked with several ottbs in the past, she does know she cant ride her like a quarter horse. Thats why im suprised she has even said anything about this process taking a while. Overall, she may just have been having a bad day and it wasnt really my horse causing the frustration.
Im not opposed to finding a new trainer, but my horse is making progress and i hate to lose that. Also in my area its hard to find a trainer who will actually ride them, themselves and not an assistant and who will turn them out for more than a couple hours.
She is currently on omiprazole almost a month in. I havent tried regumate but ill keep that in mind.
Agree with above posts. You probably have a multitude of things going on - if she’s 8, she was probably in race training for a few years, so unlearning that will take time (and some never come around and always fix everything by going faster). I’d have vet check thoroughly. Could be multiple issues - back issues, probably ulcers, Regumate or DepoProvera is worth a try, ovarian cyst, etc. I think lots of riding on the buckle is a good plan - hacks/trail rides/etc. I think race training coupled with some health issues - she will take time. And if you scope for ulcers and she’s gastric negative - it could mean she has hindgut ulcers. I have a gelding that didn’t respond to Omeprazole, but is managed reasonably on sucralfate.
Sulcufrate is pretty cheap. I have one horse who I give him a dose before riding and it helps.
ill have to try that thanks!
To answer other questions
She has had a thorough:
Vet exam
Dental
Chiropractic
Im just not familiar with ottbs thats why when i got her and i realized how much horse she is, i sought out a trainer who had experience to help me.
However, i love this horse very much and i dont want to give up on her. Emotions aside i can see the potential, shes very athletic and carries herself well, if we can get her to come around i think she will be a great horse.
In the end i want to do whats right for her, if thats switching trainers, fine, if thats more time, fine. If thats turning her out and letting her live out her days in our field with the other horses, not ideal but if thats what she needs, fine.
Not that I believe you can find all solutions in supplements…I do try to use supplements to help. Another one that I’ve put a lot of OTTBs on and have thought I saw a difference (not in all but in some) is Ex Stress. I tend to get the pelleted version. But if you don’t see a difference…don’t waste you money! https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=a98abad2-04e2-41ea-92a5-67ee90b03b63&sfb=1&itemguid=60e79681-d228-4870-b007-d31b252e57eb&utm_content=28166&ccd=IFH003&CAWELAID=120295250000093090&CATARGETID=120295250000171530&cadevice=t&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_7DHir-k1QIVl42zCh0grgaFEAQYBCABEgJX6_D_BwE
Honestly, if you are new to OTTBs this horse is probably not for you. Not to say someone can’t work with the horse, but it does not sound like a good match.
I would double check her mouth. Get her routine rock solid. Lots of turn out. There is no reason she can’t be settling by now. Maybe a new trainer might be worth looking into.
All of this just screams ulcers.
Also, stall walking hot horse? I’d go for 24/7 turnout. My mare is a lunatic and just not pleasant to work with if she is stalled more than a couple hours a day. With 24/7 turnout, she’s no dull-beast by any means, but she’s pretty amazing.
Most mares stop cycling in fall and don’t resume until spring, I’d skip that. Also, if she’s having homone issues with her cycle, they would be for just a few days every 3 weeks, really erratic then fine the rest of the time. From what you say, doesnt sound like its cycle related.
Dont make excuses for the trainer, she’s a professional and the good ones never vent about frustrations with a client horse to that client or anybody else. The might suggest a vet visit or equipment change but not just whine they aren’t getting as far as they thought in a ridiculously short period of time.
And don’t worry about " losing progress" if you change trainers. That’s just not so. It might be if you were well into training for a specific skill, like preparing the horse to Event at a *** then stuck it with a trainer who couldn’t ride above BN. But untraining a race horse and retraining it with solid basics should be within the ability of any trainer who actually has a background in solid basics from the saddle and is really experienced with more ambitious TBs.
If there’s a knock on the CAs and other NH type programs it’s that they tend to be ground centered and don’t translate to actual under saddle work beyond a walk or slow jog in a small ring. Even that ground work is a little different between stock type breeds and more ambitious horses of any greed. It’s just not the same approach.
Id look around. And, you know, some assistants are quite good and are basically younger, healthier versions of the head trainer who doesn’t ride so much any more. You don’t need the head trainer or name trainer, you need a good, patient rider working under that head trainer. I’ve had assistants who were much better riders then the head trainers ever were and you really just need solid basics installed, not any kind of specialty fine tuning a head trainer would be more profecient at.
Oh, if a green horse misses a session, you cant make it up the next week. They don’t remember what they were working on the day before the missed lesson and what they were supposed to do the day that was missed. For a green horse, each day builds on the last skill wise. You skip that, you do lose what they learned the day before as well as what they would have learned in the missed session. You need a trainer with a set program and schedule to really progress with re educating a career changer, not random riding.
Thars why trainers often are more successful then we are, they have the time and discipline to stick with a planned program whether they feel like it or not. It’s not rocket science but it’s very much routine and repetition on a set schedule. That’s their lifestyle at the track and any successful show barn, it’s what they know and how they, and other successful competition horses, learn. They find secuirity in that set routine and planned work sessions.
IMO and experience this is not breed specific. IMO and experience what is going on is the exception not the norm for TBs retired from racing. I’ve had done enough “research” working with them to feel confident in my opinion.
Yes, some can be more difficult than others. Just like any breed. I have yet to have one that doesn’t come around when dealing with the horse as an individual, figuring out what makes that horse tick.
Is “pain” the issue or one of the issues, maybe maybe not. Pretty easy and cheap to find out in most cases by doing a simple “Butte Test”. SOP and should be the first recommended procedure.
Is it a stress/mental related issue? Give some Ace and see what kind of results you get. Neither of these “tests” should require a vet if the trainer knows what they are doing. The cost of Butte, 25 cents, the cost of Ace 10 cents and 10 cents for the syringe. Any training barn worth boarding at should have both of these in their meds cabinet.
With out the benefit of seeing the horse under saddle, with out the benefit of running one’s hands over the horse, with out the benefit of seeing, watching the horse’s body language. All anyone can do is offer up “guesses”. Which IMO can confuse and or complicate things.
“if she’s 8, she was probably in race training for a few years, so unlearning that will take time (and some never come around and always fix everything by going faster”
The OP said she/he has had the horse for over 2 years. But I wouldn’t have let her sit around doing little to nothing other than what she wanted to do and got used to doing. I have never found length of time racing makes that much different with re-schooling. But there are always exceptions. When one arrives here it gets turned out for a week or so and back under saddle. Depending on the number of more important, profitable horses i may work with the horse constantly or get things going, get them in hand and then turn out and revisit months later. Depends on the horse.
"She is in full training with someone experienced with ottbs. She (trainer) follows Clinton Andersons “Method”
Any trainer, any trainer that works with re-schooling ex-racers, Clinton Anderson would be the last person should be would taking advice from. I used to watch some of his shows. Some useful suggestions and he is entertaining, but by and large all he doing was “re branding” age old horsemanship, tried and true in his name. Other stuff IMO and experience was extreme and unnecessary. “Cowboy BS”. If his name was Joe Smith and didn’t have an Ausy accent he’d still be punching cattle.
I watched a couple of his “series” on working with ex-racers. I just rolled my eyes couldn’t take it anymore and changed channels for good.
“I did some groundwork with her and rode her a few times in the arena but then she got hot and i kind of went chicken”
Understandable. Good on you for realizing your skill limitations. Usually this kind of horse after ruling out, hopefully ruling out physical cause and effect requires a VERY confident rider. A rider that has a lot of experience working with these type of horses. Most riders do not have this kind of back ground. Most trainers don’t either.
IME most horses can and do come around quickly, 30 to 60 days. In the right hands results should be seen in 30 days. But there are horses that take a lot longer and or will never suite the owner’s intended purpose. Regardless of breed.
I am not going to give any “training” suggestion without seeing, working with the horse. I strongly recommend, the butte test, and or giving her some Ace. To be clear not together, at the same time. To hopefully rule the basics out. This is the SOP starting point with horses exhibiting this kind of behavior.
If either of the above doesn’t give the desired results than it is a matter of trial and error based on the trainers experience with these types.
If you lived in my area I would offer to bring the horse over for a look see for a couple of days free of charge. As a breeder of TBs I feel it is my obligation to the owners and the horses. I don’t profess to be the resident expert but it is something I have specialized in for a long time.
That’s very kind up you gumtree…wish more would be willing to do things like that.
I wish i was in your area, im in oregon. Know anyone good up here?
Where in Oregon? I can’t help you but others might if they see this
About an hour outside of Portland. A really Small town.
When I got my 8yo thbd (now 20) he was a mess. It took a long time to make progress with him. I made sure he was physically fine (treated for ulcers, teeth etc) then started tweaking his routine (feed, facility, turn out, work). It took a long time and a lot of patience to get him to the place where we could really progress with any sort of work. I hand walked that horse for miles and miles in the beginning.
He is still a handful at 20 but it was worth the process. I learned a lot about patience. It was 2 steps forward and 10 back sometimes. Rewarding and I love him. Many would not have bothered (I was told over and over by pros to sell him as he was too damaged mentally and dangerous). Sometimes progress would be we walked down the driveway and he didn’t grind his teeth, grunt, spin me off and run home! Baby steps for sure. What qualifies as a step forward for you?
I had no great aspirations for him but did get him out to shows eventually.
Are you willing to put that kind of time and money into this horse? If the answer is yes then find someone to work with that really understands that. If the answer is no try to find her an appropriate home.
