Worm Anuerysm fact or fantasy?

[KBC]

When I googled this it led me to COTH, of course, most topics do, but the threads I have found are from 10 years ago, and all pretty scathing of this.

i was surprised when going through the rundown of how my horse has been since his last adjustment, when I mentioned our struggles that have appeared working on the right rein. “Ah” she says, “did it start in the spring?”

”well yes”

”well I know what that is”

Me - looks sceptical

Her, feels alongside spine, top of butt, shoulders…says yup he has worm aneurysm, one of his main arteries alongside spine, leading to gut, has worms in there…

Me - not sure if I should feel disgust, or scepticism?

The protocol for this:

Double dose Fenbenzadole for 5 days
wait 10 days
dose with Quest
wait 10 days
dose with Quest+

suggests colloidal silver as gut support through the process…

Takes a deep breath…

I have had the same person doing body work on my horses for 6 years, she is down to earth, straight forward and does a good job. My last mare was so different after her treatments it was surprising. She is not selling any womers, does not, as far as I know have shares in any company that does.i have always trusted her judgement, followed her suggestions, and have had healthy happy horses.

When she first said it, I was actually relieved that I had an answer for our right rein woes, and if this could help him, I am all for it, but not entirely convinced. If it is a case of possibly wasting money on something that doesn’t work, then OK, but if it does work…much happiness for both Chuck and I.

I can’t see the profit in her telling us this, if it doesn’t work, because I would for sure bitch next time around, so I can only figure that she believes in this. In the 10 years since the threads I have found has anyone used this protocol, had this diagnosis?

[Scribbler]

I have a good care team. I have a couple of body workers, I have a coach/trimmer, I have a saddle fitter, I have an excellent vet, and I know where to access equine nutritionists.

When one of these folks says something outside their area of actual trained expertise, I nod and smile. If it seems legit, I google it and then I ask the member of the care team that would actually know. If it seems completely bogus, then I just nod and smile and ignore.

You can have a good body worker that really has a feel for the muscles of a horse, but who has absorbed flakey ideas about other aspects of horse care. You can have an excellent vet who has only a layman’s idea of saddle fit. My vet is a trained farrier, but most aren’t. Etc.

And yes, I am sure your horse body worker believes what she is telling you. You might find if you scratch the surface that she holds a whole host of nonscientific, mutually re-inforcing bu also contradictory views on a myriad of topics, to the extent that it makes your head hurt.

This is why it’s good to self educate on horse care basics in advance of any actual issues, so you can know exactly when to nod and smile. And ignore.

OK, I went to Google and apparently the bloodworm anuerysm thing is a staple of “holistic” chiropractor websites. They are talking about one species of large strongyles (strongylus vulgaris), where the larvae do migrate through the bloodstream, can cause blood clots, and in the past were considered very dangerous to horses. However, the larvae only mature to worms once they reach the intestine.

However, large strongyles have apparently been pretty much eradicated in horses over the past several decades. These days we are mostly battling small strongyles, which have a different life cycle in that they stay out of the blood.

https://articles.extension.org/pages…yles-in-horses

So I would say this is a prime example of “pseudoscience” in the sense that yes, blood worms exist and yes, they were considered dangerous in the past. But it is the larvae that migrate, not the full grown worms, and so you would not find a full grown worm in the artery. It is a fantasy scenario concocted out of a misunderstanding of a few actual facts, and propagated by folks who prefer rumor to fact.

[DMK]

I was gonna say “hogwash” but scribbler did it more effectively.

But in the interest of good relations, my response to this would be to say that I would do a FEC (at the appropriate time of year) and adjust my deworming program based on the results, because NOTHING would be more irresponsible than contributing to the ongoing resistance issues without actually having hard data (FEC count) in hand (because every time you deworm you create “refugia” aka resistant parasites which might be causing more issues than resistant on the right rein for another horse).

[equiniphile]

To add to what’s been said above, I don’t know of any vet that recommends fenbendazole anymore. There are just better drugs without resistance issues for treating parasites.

[JB]

Fenbendazole has its place. It’s still effective enough in many places that the Power Pack (or Power Dose) is fine. And for some horses, the PP is the only way to kill encysted strongyles.

double-dosed, it’s more effective killing ascarids than ivermectin is, in most places.

That’s about it. There are some small pockets where it’s effective (enough) in killing strongyles, but you really, really need FECRTs to prove that’s the case on your own farm. And where it IS effective? Use it to the best of your ability and save the macrocyclic lactones for when you really need them.

As for the OP’s issue - it’s true that migrating strongyle larva go through the mesenteric arterial system on their way to the intestines

But last I remember, there’s no way you can even begin to feel the arteries that run below the spine. I’m pretty sure all that runs below the level of the spine

[KBC]

@JB

As for the OP’s issue - it’s true that migrating strongyle larva go through the mesenteric arterial system on their way to the intestines

But last I remember, there’s no way you can even begin to feel the arteries that run below the spine. I’m pretty sure all that runs below the level of the spine

to be fair I don’t think she was claiming to feel them, more the result of the inflammation they cause, causing lack of mobility in the joints…

[Simkie]

Oh I don’t know. I’d likely be so terribly curious, I’d try it. Sync it up with your fall deworming, see what happens. Report back!

[DMK]

But… Large strongyles… They are gone. I’m not saying gone forever because you know, measles as exhibit A, but they were really sensitive to ivermectin and it’s been a long time since they showed up in a FEC in Alabama and Georgia.

[JB]

Large strongyles are making a comeback though, unfortunately. Ironically it’s because of the less frequent deworming :lol:

I don’t even know how one would feel inflammation from something that deep in the back

Either way, it’s migrating larva, and ivermectin won’t kill them anyway.

[DMK]

interesting, because I was at a lecture not too long ago given by a vet who is serious about the herd management/parasitology stuff (possibly ran a state lab or two after retiring from teaching/practice), and just for giggles, before the lecture he called the state labs of AL and GA just to ask how long it had been since they had a report of large strongyles. I can’t remember the exact # of years since they had seen one, but you know, decades… So I’m sure they are out there, but as I understand it, they are extremely susceptible to ivermectin, so I’m not sure I would classify it as a comeback, but rather a fairly easily treatable isolated issue.

Or so an expert told me. I should not be confused with an expert.

[JB]

For sure, still easily treatable. We just stopped seeing them, for the most part, because ivermectin/moxidectin were so frequently used. Now that those are less frequently used, they are being seen in FECs more often. “Comeback” is a strange term lol - it’s not like they’ve fought the ivermectin and are now resistant and are becoming a big problem, not that kind of comeback. It’s actually the small strongyles which are showing resistance issues because of long-term over-deworming

But less frequent deworming has allowed the large strongyles to be present more often - not necessarily in alarming numbers, just there more often than never. I’m sure it may vary by region as well. My vet was the one who first told me of this a year or 2 ago, she is seeing large strongyles more often than she used to, and has seen the same info at some of the parasitology lectures she attends.

[Ghazzu]

Leaving aside the fact that the mesenteric artery doesn’t run along the spine, even if some parasitic infestation caused an aneurysm, deworming will not repair it. And if she’s claiming to feel inflammation, how does that mean there’s an aneurysm? Those are typically asymptomatic until they rupture.

[KBC]

@Ghazzu

Leaving aside the fact that the mesenteric artery doesn’t run along the spine, even if some parasitic infestation caused an aneurysm, deworming will not repair it. And if she’s claiming to feel inflammation, how does that mean there’s an aneurysm? Those are typically asymptomatic until they rupture.

I’m not convinced of this, but to be fair, she isn’t claiming to feel worms, or I think the inflammation, but the results of that inflammation.

[Ghazzu]

@KBC

I’m not convinced of this, but to be fair, she isn’t claiming to feel worms, or I think the inflammation, but the results of that inflammation.

And how is she so sure about the cause/location of said inflammation?

[Guilherme]

@KBC

I’m not convinced of this, but to be fair, she isn’t claiming to feel worms, or I think the inflammation, but the results of that inflammation.

The beginning of ANY therapeutic regimen is the SOAP analysis.

Subjective
Objective
Analysis
Plan

Feeling an anomaly is a subjective thing. The person claiming to feel something that isn’t right is stating an opinion. If it’s a learned opinion (like one would get from a vet) then that’s one thing. If it’s from a non-vet then it’s not learned. That does not mean it’s wrong or false; just that the person reporting it lacks certain training and experience.

When an anomaly is reported then there is, or ought to be, a search for objective evidence of same. A “worm aneurysm” in a place where it can be felt with fingers should be visible by ultrasound. Or a change in tissue density would also be visible. Was this done? If not, why not? Since the claimed anomaly is close enough to the surface of the skin to feel then doing an needle biopsy of the area would be pretty simple. And if no objective search was made then there is no credible evidence of anomaly. We need go no farther.

If an anomaly is found then it’s evaluated. Right now there has been no credible evidence of anomaly found.

Since there is no objective finding to analyze then there is no need to develop a Plan.

I realize that the above is not PC in lots of quarters. But it’s the foundation of the scientific method of diagnosing illness or injury. There is no requirement that an owner do a SOAP. Their horse, their decision. The phrase term “equine body worker” tells me precisely nothing about the person who makes the claim of illness in the horse. IMO a horseman (or woman) who is serious about care for their animals does not deal in non-fact.

The OP needs to ask themselves some hard questions before they go haring off after cures that might not be required. That has two negative effects. It subjects the horse to medications, and the risks of same, that are not required. And it drains the owner’s bank account of funds that they don’t need to expend. Now if, while following “rabbit trails,” the horse DOES develop an issue that is properly diagnosed the funds spent on speculative care are not available to spend on definitive care. That’s Bad for both horse and owner.

G.

[deltawave]

Blood vessel walls can be damaged by migrating worms, yes.

But anyone claiming to be able to feel them is full of crap.

They do not pop up in a matter of days or weeks, nor do they come and go.

Anyone recommending colloidal silver for ANYTHING is a bona fide quack, period, end of conversation.

Taking a little pellet of biology and building myths around it–that’s pseudoscience in its purest form.

[Dunkhead]

I had the same osteopath ( different degree in Europe where he is from than here) who people said was diagnosing worm anuerysms years ago look at my horse about a year ago. I had been very reluctant to do this mostly because of what I read on this board. But I also trusted the Board Certified Sport Vet who uses him so I finally let the osteopath look at my horse.

This horse has had bouts of lameness/just not quite right moments since she was about 4 ( have had her since a month under saddle at age 3). She is insured so has had about mid-5 figures of diagnostics, treatments, etc… and was still NQR. Plus, I am religious about her care so she was de-wormed after fecals as needed, but at least twice a year.

The osteopath didn’t use the term “worm aneurysm”, but did say he thought the mare had encysted strongoyles ( spelling?) in her neck and likely peritoneum ( might be making this term up, but best I recall that was it). I still thought it was hooey based on advice I read here.

I asked two different equine vets what they thought and both said that the described situation was possible even with a horse that had been de-wormed regularly. Apparently, the worms can attach while the horse is very young and cause the problems later on. The damage is often found on necropsy.

The protocol I was given involved Quest, Panacur and a few other things. I did follow the protocol and my mare is like a different horse. She can bend her neck and is just thriving in general.

The moral of the story for me is 1) Sometimes things get lost in translation no matter how hard we try to communicate what we thought someone said. and 2) Ask more than one vet’s opinion.

[Ghazzu]

@Dunkhead

I had the same osteopath ( different degree in Europe where he is from than here) who people said was diagnosing worm anuerysms years ago look at my horse about a year ago. I had been very reluctant to do this mostly because of what I read on this board. But I also trusted the Board Certified Sport Vet who uses him so I finally let the osteopath look at my horse.

This horse has had bouts of lameness/just not quite right moments since she was about 4 ( have had her since a month under saddle at age 3). She is insured so has had about mid-5 figures of diagnostics, treatments, etc… and was still NQR. Plus, I am religious about her care so she was de-wormed after fecals as needed, but at least twice a year.

The osteopath didn’t use the term “worm aneurysm”, but did say he thought the mare had encysted strongoyles ( spelling?) in her neck and likely peritoneum ( might be making this term up, but best I recall that was it). I still thought it was hooey based on advice I read here.

I asked two different equine vets what they thought and both said that the described situation was possible even with a horse that had been de-wormed regularly. Apparently, the worms can attach while the horse is very young and cause the problems later on. The damage is often found on necropsy.

The protocol I was given involved Quest, Panacur and a few other things. I did follow the protocol and my mare is like a different horse. She can bend her neck and is just thriving in general.

The moral of the story for me is 1) Sometimes things get lost in translation no matter how hard we try to communicate what we thought someone said. and 2) Ask more than one vet’s opinion.

More likely you are thinking of Onchocerca (neck threadworms) and not Strongylus spp (lg strongyles) or Triodontophorus spp (small strongyles)

[AllHorse]

The aorta runs below the spine.
The larvae from the large strongyle migrate through the arteries so can cause damage like aneurysms but I think it would be unlikely to see evidence of that along the spine without there being evidence of a circulatory problem as well
If I was even remotely suspicious I’d be asking for advice from a vet not a chiropractor.
Not sure I’d want to be spending any more money on this persons services if the vet confirmed there was nothing wrong