Would anyone like to critique my horse's conformation?

I posted his pictures on the dressage forum too (I know his shortcomings and know he’s not a dressage horse) but I’d like to hear from western folks since that is what he was bred to do (western pleasure). But I’m trying to learn more about flaws and desirable traits and to tune my eye so I can be a better horse shopper in the future.

So tell me the good, bad and ugly. I think he has a long back and a short neck. He’s also downhill. How’s his shoulder? Hindquarters?

http://i1093.photobucket.com/albums/i432/tackoverload/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20160924_121433116.jpg

I apologize that he’s not square. I did the best I could without a holder. He kept looking at me and cocking a hind leg so it took over 20 minutes just to get this shot without him turning to face me. There’s also another picture of him in my folder that you should be able to find.

Here’s his pedigree: http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/just+two+rocki

Thanks in advance for your time. I’d also love to hear what things you look for in a horse and what things you avoid, and any tips you have on evaluating conformation.

I would agree that he is long backed and short necked. As a result, it makes his front end look somewhat heavy. I’d like to see a little more muscular development in his shoulders and hindquarters, but the angle of the photo could be making him look a bit flat. He is also a little downhill, but a lot of quarter horses and paints are bred to be that way. I could be wrong, but I think I see a little rib in there. I don’t like to see rib on paints at all, but I like to have my horses a little chubby (not obese, but a little more cover than they absolutely need), even in work :D. I like my porkers.

Overall, he looks like he’d be a decent mover, with good gaits.

It is hard to say much from just one picture, once the horse stands around in a few different ways, the image can change drastically and once the horse moves, even the most ungainly duck may move like a well oiled swan.

So, taking that into consideration, first, that pedigree and his looks confirm it, he is bred and looks more like an all arounder than a western pleasure or any other single purpose type.
Even without a pedigree, you can see the Three Bars influence in his looks, which is really better than how some very lights western pleasure/trail horses of today are built, he can do more and stay more sound doing it.

I would say, the way he is standing there, he may be a bit back at the knee, but that could be helped with a little less toe and more heel under him.
He may be and a little more sickle-hocked than ideal, his front end looks somewhat heavy, as if he had been gelded later, his back seems a bit long and his hind end adequate, hip could be a tad longer, but he is substantial and his gaskin muscles tie in low nicely.
There he doesn’t really look high behind, he looks a hair lighter behind for his heavier front end, which goes back to maybe having been gelded later.
He does stand where he looks a little bit swayback, but he has good depth of shoulder and girth.

Horses like him do look better carrying more weight, but it is not necessarily good for them.
Being on the leaner side, for the heavier type horses, is always better for their metabolism, that tends to easy keepers anyway.

His neck is not really too short, just not thin and elegant, but then that is not what he is bred to be, not a very light type horse.
His throat-latch could be slimmer, but he looks like many crop-out paints.
His expression seems all Skipper W, they tended to have a mind of their own and not mind letting you know when they were getting annoyed.

Seeing several more pictures standing in different ways, much of what we may see there could change considerably.
Decades ago, horses with his breeding and general looks were some of the better race and ranch and roping horses.

It is easy to try to take any horse apart, the proof is truly in the whole package, what they do with all that and that, along with their disposition, is what makes a good horse.

Thank you both, I really appreciate your insights. And I agree with all assessments. I really wanted to take shots from the front and rear as well (which would confirm Bluey’s assessment of sickle hocks) but again, without a holder he was minimally cooperative. Bluey, you are also right on him having a mind of his own, and being opinionated when annoyed. Funny how certain bloodlines do seem to carry that. But, I bought him so that I would have a safe, sane horse to ride after my knee surgery, and he is that. His favorite gait is whoa, he’s a push ride, and he’s comfortable to sit on.

I don’t think he’s too thin (very hard to assess with only 2 pictures, both of which do show a line of ribs) but he is definitely under-muscled right now. In addition to having bad hocks (in the process of fusing) he recently curbed a hock and has been lame, so he has been out of riding work for a while now, and it shows in his topline, shoulders and hind end. He is also base-narrow.

I think that by drawing the dots on his withers, point of shoulder and elbow, that he has an acceptable (not closed) shoulder angle, but evaluating shoulder angles is not the easiest for me. He does not move as well as I would expect, but I do think part of that is his feet (and hocks). I’m on farrier #3 with him and we are still battling negative plantar and palmar angles.

The only videos online of him are before I bought him (again, not me riding, this is several years before I purchased him).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs3DQ1TKhBE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD6WUsrYPLA

I need to get some current videos up of his movement (when he is sound enough again). We’ve been doing primarily dressage and I’m happy with a lot of the progress he has made, but am definitely becoming more aware of conformational limitations as they relate to dressage.

Ok, he looks very different than in the picture when younger and in training, not older and out of shape.
He does look a bit rump high there and lighter than now, but seems to have tons of all that kind of training for those disciplines.

For dressage, you probably had to work very hard to get true contact and forward, but what his previous training would have given him is a wonderful work ethic, they really have to be able to take all that very specific training without complaint and not that many can.
He probably didn’t have what we call here “a made mouth”, but was taught to back off a bit all the time, that achieved with that “handsy” training those trainers use.
He shows that in the transitions, where he shows a bit of resistance.

I wonder if not moving on more as you say you wish is because of that training?
He sure seems to have enough shoulder for that.

You mention narrow base, if it is just a little, that is better for a performance horse, lets them get out of their own way when performing, unlike the wider and/or more muscle bound ones.
A longer back generally makes for a smoother to sit horse, that makes it better for the rider and so the horse.

I hope you get the soundness issues worked out and can get back to enjoying him fully.

Me too, Bluey. So do you think his shape and musculature look better when he was a younger western pleasure horse? I’m pretty happy with the improvements, but all of your estimations of our cross-training difficulties are spot on. I do feel he’s a better mover now. And I feel like his neck and shoulder look better now than when I got him. I wish I had taken a confo shot at the start for comparison.

Edit - I found a short video on my phone. Not the best quality and not truly comfortable hocks. and definitely still tons of room for improvement but he’s more forward, true 3 beat, and lifting his head and withers. It has been a lot of work to work around the spur stop and get acceptance of contact. https://youtu.be/Ci7roOssiPI

[QUOTE=meaty ogre;8861068]
Me too, Bluey. So do you think his shape and musculature look better when he was a younger western pleasure horse? I’m pretty happy with the improvements, but all of your estimations of our cross-training difficulties are spot on. I do feel he’s a better mover now. And I feel like his neck and shoulder look better now than when I got him. I wish I had taken a confo shot at the start for comparison.[/QUOTE]

Not really “better”, he looked right for the job at hand, not in general.
There is no standard that fits all horses in all purposes, except in our minds, according to what we choose to do with our horses.
That is why we breed different conformation and action and mental traits in our horses, although we can use several of the same in different but compatible disciplines.
I am not sure western arena riding and dressage is one that is easy to train for both at the same time with the same horse, too many antagonistic traits between them.

The beauty of dressage, you can use that kind of training for all horses as far as the basics, as gymnastics, for basic performances, then add specialized more technical training to continue in dressage’s higher levels, or go to western events or other.

I think evaluating and training is best as a continuum, just change along as what we see and our goals develop, as our horses and ourselves learn more.

I think I get what you’re saying. That’s why you said in your confo analysis that he looked more like an all rounder, when he was definitely a western pleasure bred and trained horse when i got him. I did go back and add a short video. Unfortunately it’s one I had a friend take to help me evaluate the level of soreness in his hocks, but it does show some of the change.

The only red flag for me are his feet and the lack of heel, long toes. I hope that can be/has been rectified with proper foot care.

I really like that he has withers to keep a saddle in place, and I think that working in a way that caused him to use his core would improve his back.

His neck length isn’t so bad, but it is thick. It ties in low at his chest and is unrefined at the throat latch. What concerns me there is how tight/stiff his neck looks. I would definitely work on relaxing those muscles, and getting him more supple.

All in all, you have a nice horse. :slight_smile: