Would doing dressage as the final phase make eventing safer?

[JER]

I expressed a preference for this, semi-facetiously, on the ‘blood’ thread. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.

Let’s start with this: there is no evidence whatsoever that doing a dressage test before XC makes XC safer in any way.

If you wanted to argue for the sake of argument, you could say that dressaging about in front of a judge allows an official to see if your horse is sound or that your horse is reasonably obedient. However, there are other ways to judge soundness for XC, and dressage scores don’t correlate to XC safety.

So what began as semi-facetious is now turning serious. I’ll list out some points as to why dressage last could be safer.

1. Horses that are unsuitable or even iffy on XC will be redirected out of the sport of eventing. This is the better version of the horse with top dressage scores who doesn’t always get around XC. Those horses will get 20s and letters and will be no-hopers by dressage time. If a rider wants to be competitive, they won’t ride unsuitable XC horses.

2. If a rider wants a good placing, the rider will have to get around XC. Yes, I know, it’s like that now, but this would be without the mental crutch of a good dressage score. There is no evidence that this is helpful on XC; in fact, you could point to several factors that might make a high-scoring dressage horse who’s iffy on solid obstacles less safe on XC. As in, ‘I’m in first/second/third place, I have to get around’ – which might lead a rider to take unnecessary risks. Or a horse that has a tendency to leave a leg will be E’d early on and not even get the chance to do a fancy dressage test. Again, a rider would be more likely to start with a more suitable XC horse.

3. With dressage last, we wouldn’t be asking a tired horse to jump, gallop or make quick, life-saving decisions. I mean, it’s dressage, you don’t wan’t the horse to be making decisions at all, really.

Now here’s my one argument against dressage last: Dressage is judged subjectively. Do we want the final phase – after two phases of objective jumping efforts – to be determined by scores that are subjective?

The sport governing bodies have been willing to throw out the long format, shorten courses, increase the use of portables, switch around Xc and SJ, etc. Why not dig a little deeper and question the basic tenet of dressage first?

[enjoytheride]

I think dressage scores would go up by at least 20 points on average.

My mare would have put in much better tests if she was already lubed up and tired from XC.

[curlykarot]

Interesting idea. Just a thought about this. In area 2, most events are held in the one day, very condensed format: dressage, then SJ and then 10-20 min later, XC. I know that at the lower levels, at least, the first 2 phases are used to watch for those who could be dangerous on XC.

Not sure if that would be a concern or not.

[curlykarot]

Duplicate post

[Gestalt]

I don’t think number two makes a difference. If I know my horse is iffy on x country than I’m going to “ride hard” whether I know my dressage score is good or don’t know it at all. And if dressage is removed all together than it really isn’t eventing, is it?

I loved the long format (to watch, I’m too chicken to ride it!) And I love long galloping courses with natural looking obstacles. I don’t know what can help make eventing safer, but I hope that somehow, someone will come up with a way.

[WB_Mom]

If the goal of the USEA and others is to make the sport as safe as possible, then a thorough discussion and appropriate research of what order to perform each ‘test’ should already have been done. This should have been one of the very first things looked at. Has it been done and did I just miss the outcome? It is possible that the order could be tailored to different levels.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Wasn’t this the format of the sport Originally? I have a faint recollection that it was…as all dressage was supposed to mimic was the basic parade for the Calvary.

ETA: Yup…originally…dressage was LAST.

http://www.discovereventing.com/?q=node/67

And while personally I would like this…I don’t see it happening as dressage is the most boring phase to watch and I don’t see the organizers able to keep spectators interested unless we really changed up the “dressage” test. Make it an actual parade situation. Lets see how our horse do all riding together, and us riders having to carry flags or weapons. That could be interesting… Personally…I say just get rid of dressage all together or have it be just a basic soundness check…like a final line up.

[yellowbritches]

I’ve known some old, creaky campaigners that would have gotten much better scores on movement if they’d gotten to jump before dressage (not necessarily xc). Don’t know about making it safer, though. I’ve had a few horses that probably would have benefited from being TIRED for the dressage. Also, those buttheads who know that xc comes after the sandbox. Again, safer? Meh. Better dressage scores on certain types? Yup.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8078571]
Personally…I say just get rid of dressage all together or have it be just a basic soundness check…like a final line up.[/QUOTE]

I know the last part was tongue in cheek but… I am a dressage lover… even as a born and bred EV I couldn’t live with EV if they ditched the DR phase… consider this dressage diva clutching her pearls at the very idea!! Maybe I’m weird… but I look forward to the DR phase as much as the rest!

As far as doing the XC phase first… Hmm… this is definitely interesting. I admit I am not a fan of change (in general) but this sounds like it would be fun to do. Me personally, I would perform terribly doing XC first (DR helps me get my show-jitters down) but that would be the point right? To weed those unsuitable for the level out right away…

[frugalannie]

Intriguing thought JER. What about XC, then dressage then stadium? That would pull a noticeably lame horse out before stadium and there would be crowd appeal and a chance for a victory gallop.

[wildlifer]

Absolutely!!! Then I could just leave after XC & I’d be much less tired driving home, making the trip safer for all concerned!

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8078904]
Intriguing thought JER. What about XC, then dressage then stadium? That would pull a noticeably lame horse out before stadium and there would be crowd appeal and a chance for a victory gallop.[/QUOTE]

This is actually brilliant. It would also rein in some of the really aggressive “go for broke” riding on XC because having a sore, banged up horse will tank the dressage score.

[retreadeventer]

There is certainly no shortage of dreaming in the event world.

[Snugglerug]

I just said in my jumping lesson last week that I wish my dressage warm-up could include schooling a few jumps, but not because it calms mine down. Rather, it gets him forward and round more quickly. That said, I’m not sure I see much safety benefit in running dressage last. I’m definitely a low level rider though, blessed with a horse who knows a hell of a lot more about jumping than I do, so take me with a grain of salt.

[JER]

[QUOTE=frugalannie;8078904]
Intriguing thought JER. What about XC, then dressage then stadium? That would pull a noticeably lame horse out before stadium and there would be crowd appeal and a chance for a victory gallop.[/QUOTE]

That’s fine too, although my preference would be for dressage last because if you wanted to leave early to beat traffic. In my 20 years in California, this was always a consideration, when your 5-hour drive becomes a 9-hour drive all because you left half an hour later. Sometimes, it was worth it to take a W for SJ.

At a marquee event, like Badminton or Burghley, having dressage last would give everyone ample time to go shopping on the final day. If you don’t think that’s important, you’ve never been to Badminton or Burghley.

If XC is supposed to be the heart of eventing – and let’s face it, eventers do what is at most mediocre dressage and SJ – then why not put it first? If XC is put in a position of prime importance, then would it be a natural way of culling unsuitable horses and riders? You’d probably be more likely to choose a good XC horse over a flashy mover with a balloon jump.

FWIW, I don’t dislike dressage. I like it for training, I don’t like it so much as a way of life for a horse. But all of my horses are very well-schooled in it, even the ones who pretend otherwise in the show arena. I wouldn’t take a horse out on XC if I didn’t think it had good basics, and my more experienced horses are always very adjustable within and between gaits.

That said, I think having dressage first gives dressage scoring a false sense of importance, and that in turn might have consequences in terms of safety on XC, whether due to rider/horse skill development or horse selection.

[Winding_Down]

Intriguing, especially now that we realize that historically, dressage was last.

I still prefer it first, even though scores would obviously be better on a horse that had just finished jumping phases. My logic is that dressage is the natural warm-up for sj, and sj is the natural warm-up for xc. So for one day events, I like this sequence best as it seems like a sensible progression. And if I am going to have problems jumping, I would prefer to have those in sj rather than in xc.

I like the newer format of dressage-sj-xc for those reasons. But I can see the point of doing dressage last. I see the fewest reasons to have xc before sj, however. Makes no sense in terms of training or in terms of warm-up.

[FitToBeTied]

I guess I am just a curmudgeon, To me its like education, the more we change it to make it “better” the worse it gets. I don’t like doing dressage but way back when when I started eventing the purpose of each phase was more than to just a get a score.

In case people have forgotten. The reason dressage was first was so that you could show that a horse that was fit enough to to do the endurance phase the next day was also rideable enough to show precision, control and discipline during the dressage phase.

You really take away that element by putting dressage last.

I think we should be looking at safety but not at the expense of changing the sport so much that it becomes unrecognizable. I understand how stadlium ahead of XC in the lower levels can promote safety but I don’t see how making dressage last does that at all. If dressage is sapping so much of your energy that they can’t safely complete a XC course then you haven’t done a good enough job on conditioning.

[FitToBeTied]

@bornfreenowexpensive;8078571

ETA: Yup…originally…dressage was LAST.

http://www.discovereventing.com/?q=node/67

I see from the link that Dressage was eliminated from the competition in the Antwerp games. I could support that.

[Hawks_Nest]

I have actually witnessed first hand (at a LL event, BN-P) someone getting pulled from XC before they even went because the officials saw her in dressage and stadium and were pretty much horrified.

Officials do use dressage (and stadium) to pick out horse and rider pairs to keep an eye on. They will then make an effort to see them out on XC or let the fence judges know. Having the most dangerous phase first means the officials have no sense of what sort of riders are on the course so a really hot horse with a rider who can’t control it, while already an accident waiting to happen, won’t have potentially been spoken to before going out and the officials definitely won’t already be keeping an eye on her.

[JER]

Does anyone really think that dressage is a good warm-up for XC?

When you warmup for XC, do you do dressage, or do you do something else? I make sure the horse is in front of my leg, is adjustable, is going to the jumps. I might use some dressage stuff like leg yielding to help with all of the above, but I don’t do ‘dressage’. That’s not what I’m looking for on XC.

Also, could someone show me the evidence of how dressage scores correlate to XC safety? I have two horses who were abominable in dressage but excelled on XC. One is the safest jumper I have ever seen. He was well-schooled but simply did not approximate any kind of dressage frame. We didn’t look out-of-control in dressage, but he also never looked like he was paying any attention to the rider. Jumping was a different story.

You can tell if a pair is unsafe for XC usually by watching them in the warm-up for XC. This is a much better indicator than dressage. We’ve all seen pairs go out on course after a miserable warm-up and know they won’t get around. And some of these horses score well in dressage.