Would doing dressage as the final phase make eventing safer?

[hopashore1]

To all those saying you don’t “do dressage” to warm up your horses–then my response is you’re not “doing dressage” properly. Good dressage is good training.

Even at the 4* level they are only schooling USDF 3rd level movements. Which basically consists of the horse being on the aids, showing extension and collection at all gaits, and the balance and strength at the canter necessary to both hold counter canter and do some flying changes. I would certainly hope that in warming up to go XC the rider touches on those. No one is doing tempi changes here, even in a dressage warmup (at least not intentionally!). Obviously there would be less of an emphasis on the relaxation and throughness, but the basic principles still ought to apply. These are also all basic flatwork asked at the major equitation/medal classes in the H/J/eq world.

The progression of the dressage tests follow the levels–the levels where XC requires more collection/extension differences also show the same idea in the dressage ring. The levels where maintaining your horse’s canter in a proper balance, whether through counter canter or a change are asked in dressage are also where loss of balance coming to a fence is more influential on XC/SJ.

I’m not saying that’s not hard. I’m riding my OTTB ex-eventer at 3rd level right now and it’s definitely not been easy. But the point of good dressage is to make your horses stronger, more rideable, and attentive to the aids. When dressage is done WRONG it’s certainly detrimental–you don’t want anyone using draw reins warming up for XC but you also don’t ideally want anyone warming up for dressage using draw reins either.

I will also say that I have seen some very scary dressage rounds that, at least in my somewhat limited experience as spectator, tend to map onto fairly scary SJ and XC rounds, mostly due to lack of control and fighting between horse and rider, even with stronger bits. Often these horses are scopey enough to get away with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s pretty…or safe.

[BaroquePony]

^ :yes:

[BWP]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8080139]
How would a show that is XC only be placed? Closest to optimal time like a hunter pace?[/QUOTE]

Yes Usually, though some have timed sections and fastest within that section, clear is the winner.

They are very common here, and a great way to get youngsters out and about or to have a round under competition conditions before eventing proper. Can run a couple of classes in a day, and often have pairs classes which are fab for horses who need a bit of nannying!

There are also national competitions with qualifiers, run by the BHS/BRC

[vineyridge]

Dressage last might make the sport safer, but it would be decidedly spectator unfriendly. Say you have dressage last in a 3 day. That would mean two days of dressage at 4s after all the fun stuff is over. It would absolutely kill 4s.

[FitToBeTied]

If dressage were last, I’d have a lot of W’s on my record. Stad, XC, go home.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=JER;8078472]
I expressed a preference for this, semi-facetiously, on the ‘blood’ thread. But the more I thought about it, the more I liked it.

Let’s start with this: there is no evidence whatsoever that doing a dressage test before XC makes XC safer in any way.

If you wanted to argue for the sake of argument, you could say that dressaging about in front of a judge allows an official to see if your horse is sound or that your horse is reasonably obedient. However, there are other ways to judge soundness for XC, and dressage scores don’t correlate to XC safety.

So what began as semi-facetious is now turning serious. I’ll list out some points as to why dressage last could be safer.

1. Horses that are unsuitable or even iffy on XC will be redirected out of the sport of eventing. This is the better version of the horse with top dressage scores who doesn’t always get around XC. Those horses will get 20s and letters and will be no-hopers by dressage time. If a rider wants to be competitive, they won’t ride unsuitable XC horses.

2. If a rider wants a good placing, the rider will have to get around XC. Yes, I know, it’s like that now, but this would be without the mental crutch of a good dressage score. There is no evidence that this is helpful on XC; in fact, you could point to several factors that might make a high-scoring dressage horse who’s iffy on solid obstacles less safe on XC. As in, ‘I’m in first/second/third place, I have to get around’ – which might lead a rider to take unnecessary risks. Or a horse that has a tendency to leave a leg will be E’d early on and not even get the chance to do a fancy dressage test. Again, a rider would be more likely to start with a more suitable XC horse.

3. With dressage last, we wouldn’t be asking a tired horse to jump, gallop or make quick, life-saving decisions. I mean, it’s dressage, you don’t wan’t the horse to be making decisions at all, really.

Now here’s my one argument against dressage last: Dressage is judged subjectively. Do we want the final phase – after two phases of objective jumping efforts – to be determined by scores that are subjective?

The sport governing bodies have been willing to throw out the long format, shorten courses, increase the use of portables, switch around Xc and SJ, etc. Why not dig a little deeper and question the basic tenet of dressage first?

:)[/QUOTE]
It seems, at times, we think a like. As the title mentioned,“thinking outside the box”…not a bad thing.

A great idea, would love it last.

[BaroquePony]

Posted by hopashore1:

To all those saying you don’t “do dressage” to warm up your horses–then my response is you’re not “doing dressage” properly. Good dressage is good training.

The question was raised by a poster on this thread about whether “dressage” was considered a “warm up” for the next phase … they even brought up that muscles cool off within 20 minutes in the human … since we don’t bother to test horses for much of anything, I suspect they used a real mammal that had been tested, the human, as their example.

Dressage is training; we all supposedly know that … but damn if you mention the word “dressage” in the hunter / jumper crowd … you will get vilified for not calling it flat-work.

“Good dressage” is a special kind of training actually.

This would be a question of semantics.

[Carol_Ames]

do away with all jumping?

Let’s et honest about this:lol:; doing away with all:eek: jumping phases would be the safest!:sadsmile:

[BaroquePony]

Well, Carol, you’re no fun :lol:

[JER]

[QUOTE=hopashore1;8084961]
To all those saying you don’t “do dressage” to warm up your horses–then my response is you’re not “doing dressage” properly. Good dressage is good training. [/QUOTE]

Oh my, you are preachy.

@hopashore1;8084961

Even at the 4* level they are only schooling USDF 3rd level movements. Which basically consists of the horse being on the aids, showing extension and collection at all gaits, and the balance and strength at the canter necessary to both hold counter canter and do some flying changes. I would certainly hope that in warming up to go XC the rider touches on those.

This really isn’t how an XC warm-up works. You might do those things, if the horse benefits from it, but it’s just not what you’re looking to prep.

An experienced XC horse doesn’t need to be schooled in flying changes in warm-up. The horse knows how and when to do this on course, and it really doesn’t matter if the horse is on the ‘correct’ lead. The horse will usually do what it prefers to jump comfortably and safely.

Probably a better way to say it is that ‘obedience’ and ‘submission’ aren’t the same thing in XC as in dressage, and you really don’t want the dressage type of obedience and submission on XC. A horse has to think for himself and sort himself out, with much graver consequences that if he flubs his half-pass. You want to get him thinking forward in warm-up, and you want to make sure he’s adjustable, but you never want to get to where he’s not quickly answering questions on his own. That’s where XC gets unsafe.

I do understand the point that you’re trying to make, and it’s true that a horse needs to be on the aids for XC. But the goals are very different than for a dressage test, and if you seek dressage ‘obedience’ and ‘submission’, you could very easily find yourself in trouble.

[JP60]

@hopashore1;8084961

To all those saying you don’t “do dressage” to warm up your horses–then my response is you’re not “doing dressage” properly. Good dressage is good training.

Good point. However, by the time you are at a HT, training, in the sense of teaching a new movement or new combination, is set aside. The HT is the test. We get a score. What ever a rider/horse do warming up for XC it should not be viewed as training, but reminders and getting the body and mind ready for the test.

I do agree that good dressage is good training overall.

I will also say that I have seen some very scary dressage rounds that, at least in my somewhat limited experience as spectator, tend to map onto fairly scary SJ and XC rounds, mostly due to lack of control and fighting between horse and rider, even with stronger bits. Often these horses are scopey enough to get away with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s pretty…or safe.

As an advocate for Dressage Last (JER may groan that I’m in her camp ;)), the idea that dressage can “rat out” the problem teams is slightly disingenuous. For the most part, about the only way a team can be eliminated is if they step out of the ring or withdraw. A bad test does not correlate one for one a bad jumping round and it would be very difficult for a judge (if they even can) to force an elimination.

By the time any of us go to a HT we are doing so with the belief we can perform all 3 phases. A rider can evaluate a horse just as well before xc to the mental and physical condition, and needs not the process of dressage to get an idea of where the horse’s mind is at. Consider the number of times we’ve gone cross country schooling and never did a “dressage” phase to get ready. The horse does that task asked of it and whether it is a three day or one day, it does not care about order, just if the rider is ready to perform.

@vineridge

Dressage last might make the sport safer, but it would be decidedly spectator unfriendly. Say you have dressage last in a 3 day. That would mean two days of dressage at 4s after all the fun stuff is over. It would absolutely kill 4s.

What seems to be killing 4* is the FEI, not the order of phases.

First, the sport is not about spectators and given the response over the recent FEI cluster-muck, changing the sport to please spectators is a quick way to kill it altogether. At most lower levels the only spectators are friends and family members and they will stay (or not). At the 3/4*, sure there are paying people, but from an organizer standpoint, I’ll get my money whether Dressage is first or last. If people want to see dressage they will stay just as when it is first, many will come after dressage is done.

If putting it last makes the sport safer overall, is that not what should be the focus? Not what pleases non-horse people? Personally, I think the sport loses folks because dressage is first. They tune in, see some boring stuff and quickly tune out.

When endurance was pulled out of Eventing the emphasis was placed on Dressage and all its subjective glory. How interesting is a sport that the outcome is almost always determined by the first act? We put teams into the position of pushing to hard to overcome a bad score, or hoping someone screws up (safely) to advance.

Get the objective scoring done, xc than sj. What happens than is the first place team cannot have a bad test or risk losing that blue ribbon. A run out, rail or time fault can be negated by an outstanding test, and best of all, the final winners may not be known till the last rider performs. Now that is cliff hanger material, and puts the screws on judges to get it right.

It is a no brainer, easy to implement, can even be trial run at the lower levels, and would do good things for a sport that is taking some hits these days.

[Carol_Ames]

in a word NO1

NO NICHTS NADA !:no::mad::lol:mad:

[AmarachAcres]

Wouldn’t having dressage in the middle take care of the whole “people wait til dressage is over to show up or if last leave before it starts” issue?

Why not SJ/Dressage/CC?

[sophie]

If I were still eventing I’d be all for XC / dressage / stadium. My mare would have been much more fun during dressage after xc

Eventing without dressage would not be the same - dressage is a very good measure of obedience, suppleness and soundness.

Locally I have seen shows that are 2-phase dressage / xc, or dressage / derby, or derby alone. All fun, especially the Derby

People who don’t care for ring work usually stick to Hunter Trials or Hunter Paces.

MTA all this talk of safety - objectively, riding horses is just not a safe sport and eventing is the least safe. Accidents will happen.

[CustomDesign]

I really like the idea of XC-dressage-stadium. As much as I’d love dressage last for the purpose of skipping it after the jumping phases are over (yes, I’d be one of THOSE people, at least with my current horse!), I think that as a whole the XC-D-S is what makes the most sense.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=Carol Ames;8106417]
Let’s et honest about this:lol:; doing away with all:eek: jumping phases would be the safest!:sadsmile:[/QUOTE]

Ummmm, not really. I think we all know vast numbers of accidents & injuries occur even in gasp dressage training or trail rides or even grooming! Doing away with people on horses would be safest, actually, but that would make things REALLY boring.