Im certainly no DQ but in any discipline Ive been in (been in 3)? Horses need to stay in some type work. Young/ Green horses even more so…they forget quickly and gain energy and ambition every day they sit.
Paying for this young, Green horse to sit for months is not a wise choice. Bringing it back to work as an inexperienced, timid rider is even more unwise. Not sure depending on this…ummm…flakey trainer to assist at an as yet undisclosed price is any wiser.
This is not the right horse for you. I say that with SO MUCH love and admiration for you posting here.
Most would have just gotten the horse, not asked a bunch of opinionated strangers, and you have listened and engaged.
The right horse for you will come, make sure it’s one who can teach YOU. Not YOU teach it. You can’t fill a confidence bank from an empty piggy bank.
Along with all the rest of this Pro’s issues, this doesn’t win points with me.
DH & I retrained his 1st horse, a TWH, to Event.
If horse has the talent & is willing, training trot* & jump is not a huge deal. Neither of us are pros.
Me: more years in the tack, him: talented Newb.
At their first rated Event:
(the SJ pic has me & my TB on the right)
*I now have TWH#3.
#2 was hardwired to gait, so never trotted, not even in pasture
#3 came to me gaited, from a career trailriding.
Working with my trainer (w/o any pro rides) he now trots & canter is a Work in Progress
Just because you can buy this mare does not mean you should. Many red flags waving for me here.
If your trainer really had your best interest in heart she would guide you in the direction of buying a horse within your current riding skills that you could have fun riding right now. Life is short, don’t bank on a horse either receiving training well enough to be safe for you to ride, or not breaking a leg before you ever even get to ride the thing. Just don’t do it. I don’t care about the lease, It doesn’t change the fact that this is an inappropriate horse for an inexperienced rider who can afford a better match.
Of course your trainer would like to sell you the horse. Guaranteed income for her ongoing with training, and she doesn’t have to go through the hell that is marketing a horse.
Thanks all, you are giving me insight into the whole situation through a different lens (current lens is though eyes of the trainer). I do see some of the red flags, most specifically the lack of stability of the trainer and her inability to keep a program together and she is now hanging on by a thread.
I saw this is a great opportunity because I know the horse, have ridden her several times during lessons (although briefly), have seen trainer ride her, have seen her in her living situation. So to me, that inside info is something I can trust vs buying a horse from a stranger and I know a lot of people get screwed with horses that end up different than as they were represented by the seller. I’ve heard so many horror stories. But there are other factors here that people here are pointing out for me to consider, red flags I did not see and info I don’t know due to inexperience. So really glad to have this input from you all.
This move seems like it’s being done with the trainer’s benefit as priority. Selling you the horse would result in more income over the long run because you’d be paying board and training on top of the sale price. Sure you could go to another barn potentially in the future but she is well aware that selling a client a horse that needs training board will be smarter than just a simple sell to someone else because it’s unlikely you’ll leave soon after a hypothetical purchase of the horse given your experience and how green the horse is, not to mention you already have an established relationship.
Not saying that this trainer is trying to be manipulative/bad etc but I don’t think she’s purposely screwing herself over solely for the benefit of the animal. Scraping by for a few months and then getting sale price + board + training is probably worth it to her and she’s probably aware of that being the smarter choice.
Being good at business and prioritizing the animal’s wellbeing are not mutually exclusive; I know many people that are savvy in terms of finances and business but also put the animal first.
I strongly agree that you offer to lease the mare first. This solves the trainer’s financial issue, but you’re not stuck with an unsuitable horse if, a year down the road, you realize this just isn’t a good fit.
Definitely ask for a PPA if trainer didn’t get one already. If she’s a 4 year old who is on her way to being lame by 8, you’re looking at a heartbreaking and very expensive first horse.
Take with a massive grain of salt (like a 50lb salt block) the fact that the trainer thinks it’s a good idea, or thinks you’re ready for this horse. Of course she does, because this deal is seriously tilted in her benefit. It would turn what had been a cost liability into an ongoing revenue stream for her: not only does she get out from under the cost of the mare’s upkeep, now she’d also get income from board and the training services that selling you a potentially challenging horse will generate.
No matter how much you like your trainer, you need to make this decision with a slightly cynical business mindset. You’re at a huge disadvantage in the deal (in terms of riding expertise, perspective on the complexities of horse ownership) except for one aspect: you have no obligation whatsoever to say yes. The minute it feels like your trainer is pressuring you, or acts like your relationship would be affected if you say no, that’s the time to say NO.
A trainer told me that the only thing that is important, size wise, is if the horse “fits your leg.” I’m 5’5", and an average build mature OTTB that fits my leg is about 15.2. My 16 hand OTTB was pretty good, but her “shark fin” withers accounted for a good bit of that height.
I got this mare right off the track, so she was mega-fit, and calm. She was mature, sensible, and very well-trained for trail, hacking and jumping, so ready to go for me. No expensive, time-consuming training necessary, with a who-knows-what at the end. And no bad habits, no training to undo. Ready to go, and What You See Is What You Get.
ETA: You say you’re considering this horse because you know her well. As others said here, you only know in this point in time, not what the horse will be later, and there will be changes for many reasons.
trainer is taking the easy road. Are these horses being shown on the open market? Why is this horse not being ridden and trained on a regular basis? Why does time immediately become available upon your obtaining the horse
there are likely a lot of 15 - 16hh horses with training through 2nd level that will be a far better choice to you. Just because you “know” this young horse is not sufficient reason to pin your hopes on the green/green combo is going to benefit you in the future. You say you are a timid rider and “know " this horse. " No, you really don’t” A more , trained horse is a known quality. An owner will know its character at home and away.
the only win is going to be the trainer who earns fees from you to train this horse for you so that you can , perhaps, show in 2 years
What kind of successes are her clients having with the horses they go from her?
Do not make the mistake so many people who have posted here that you are going to rescue and support this trainer and that they are going to be your BBF in return. This is a story of woe told over and over here.
OK, OP, all of us were new once and most have made expensive mistakes that could have been avoided if we only knew how much we did NOT know. So this is not spoken from a superior position but from actual bad, expensive, physically painful and confidence busting mistakes. Add misplaced trust in the wrong people for the wrong reasons to the blunder list.
Try doing this, you should have already but guessing you have not. Make a list of routine monthly horse expenses you will be responsible for whether you ride or not and price it. Assume it is stall board. And be aware this is what you’ll pay to full lease, not just buy, part leases vary but will be based a percentage of these costs.
Monthly board What does that include, specifically?
How much hay fed how often each day?
Grain?
Do they feed at least 2xday 7 days a week?
Auto waterers or buckets, if buckets how often checked and refilled?
Stall cleaning and bedding?
Do they turn out and bring in?
Lights in the barn? (Don’t laugh, its not a given)
Farrier services, assume every 6-8 weeks. OTTBs can need special help there.
How much for the farm call?
How much for a trim?
How much for trim+Steel shoes? Aluminum shoes?
How much for trim and reset (steel only)
How much for full pads, rim pads, pour ins? Wedge shoes? Bar shoes?
Routine vet. Twice a year. If you are lucky.
How much for farm call?
How much for required Coggins?
How much for spring and fall shots recommended in your area, possibly required by barn?
What worming protocol will you follow and what will that cost?
These are the minimums for most horses wherever and however they live.
Of course, if you buy it, you will need a halter, couple of lead ropes ( they walk off), grooming tools and maybe a blanket or sheet. Price those in.
Of course saddle if you don’t have one or it does not fit, new horses never like or fit the bits and bridle we already have, thats a given. Price that out.
Just by what you have shared with us, this trainer does not have a secure business and could fold at any time. Then what? Don’t get in with her too deep or depend in her for underpriced services or provide anything to you. She goes poof, you are screwed.
Oh…note training services and lessons are not included in above costs…you need to price that out too understanding those rates will increase if she goes bust.
Getting with a better barn and program will help you educate yourself on the true costs involved before taking them on rather then find out the hard way…as many of us did and are trying to help you avoid.
daughter’s (who is also 5’10") current dressage horse is 14h even … she rode this horse to 2nd place Intro Dressage at the Morgan Nationals this year. She qualified the “horse” at a large open dressage show, winning the intro A and B.
As for the TB we had one, its primary value was to be the companion of another horse (the TB mare worship the ground Mulligan walked on) otherwise she was worthless having an injured leg from a pasture accident as a weanling rather than putting her down we rescued her… but she Could Run Very Fast on three good legs… she had two gaits walk and RUN
(by the way since this TB mare could not be trimmed as she could not stand if you picked up any foot, her hoofs always remained at the same length without trimming…we had her for about 15 years before her knee went beyond 45 degrees at which point on a pretty sunny afternoon she was humanly euthanized)
Well no-one here has seen you ride the horse or seen how she rides currently with the trainer.
If you like how she went for you in your brief lessons with her then I would try the lease come Spring and see how it goes?
There are TB’s who are just quiet and willing and not a never ending money pit with injuries and health issues.
I’d take the Winter to see how she progresses( with the trainer) and do what you can with her before you pass .
Absolutely. My 14.3 hand Morgan – who is not very wide, by Morgan standards, but has a “well sprung” belly, felt much wider to me than a friend’s narrow, 17 hand TB/Connemara cross. I didn’t feel like I had much horse under me, just that it was a long way to the ground!
OP – a month to month lease might work, if the trainer is OK with it. But do pay attention to what others have said. My Morgan was greener and spicier than I really should have had as a first horse, and it took a while, and some serious $$$ spent on full training, to be comfortable on her.
This is a great point. You will feel much more secure on a horse that fits your leg well. If your heel barely makes the widest part of their barrel, you’re in a much more precarious position, and up on 17H, it can be that much more intimidating. I kind of get that bigger horses can tend to be slower and not spook out from under you suddenly. That was a big plus in enabling me to start my 17H warmblood mare myself. She rarely makes quick movements, even if she does rear or buck.
OP, what strikes me after reading through this whole thread is that you have not expressed that you are personally enamored with this particular horse. If you are ready to buy, it is worth shopping around for the horse that really puts a smile on your face. Go read the “Talk me Down” thread in the dressage forum - OP was enabled by this same crew to go buy a 4 year old Friesian sport horse because she just clicked and fell in love. In your situation, I would also insist on a horse that you feel confident that you can handle and ride without supervision or periodic pro rides. Like some others have said, if you buy this horse, you will likely feel indebted to stay with this trainer whether or not it is the best thing, or if her situation implodes and she brings you and the mare down in the implosion.
Even the best-behaved 4 or 5 yr old is still a 5 yr old and that’s very rarely a suitable horse for an inexperienced rider who is lacking confidence. I have a medium pony who is coming 5 and spend a lot of time with my friend’s 5 yr old OTTB (16.2hh-ish) and 4 yr OTTB (solid 17.1hh). I’m very confident and they are fundamentally good-brained, well-behaved horses… but they have baby moments, they have plateaus and regressions, they test boundaries, they are high energy.
I’m 5’1 and when the 17.1hh gelding is feeling silly on the way to turnout, that’s a LOT of horse at the end of my lead rope. He knocks it off when I say, but he could very easily scare someone less confident who can’t distinguish between naughtiness and exuberance, or doesn’t have the muscle memory to say ‘grrrr’ and stop a cheeky moment before it really even starts.
And I want to echo how weird it is that trainer only sells to her own clients. Big red flag.
Think I will wait this out for now. have never seen her do anything naughty but I suppose that can change.
I,m just an inch taller than you. How do you ride these ones! One of mine is super narrow and shes definitely the one I feel the most like I could fly off any side at any time ahha. Neck length also makes a difference I find.
@Jealoushe I always said one pony I used to ride could throw me off “like a scarf.” She had absolutely nothing up front. And it wasn’t just me, it was all of her riders!
I do admit it’s one reason I love old-style Morgan horses. There’s just so much solid neck in front if things get squirrely.
Also other barns that I have lessoned at tend to put me on these giant warmbloods even for a first lesson. I don’t know where the Morgans and other short, stout ones are, but maybe it’s because I ride with trainers who are Showjumpers.
The “Mack truck” effect is why I still prefer riding smaller horses! Yes, a big horse might be a gentle, stout giant, but I feel more like a passenger, like you said, with my stubby little legs working overtime. It’s so hard to learn finesse and how to ask for something more quietly!
I really wish there were more Morgans around in my area. They’re just great little all-rounders, very smart and a comfortable build and good size for so many riders. The horse I’m currently riding is a stocky 16h, and he’s wonderful–I feel very safe on him temperamentally and physically–but he would be too big for me to be my personal horse, IMHO, because he’s still rather challenging to groom and bathe without lots of stretching (I always seem to miss spots)!
My instructor is about 5’5, however, and owns him, and I do appreciate that she admits size can be a challenge for smaller riders, rather than just pretending that “bigger is better” like some of my instructors did in the past.
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