Would you buy a place with a driveway like this?

[PonyRiderMom]

Our neighbor is saying he’s going to put in a driveway on the empty parcel next to us and try to sell it. The driveway would be a 16 % grade and 200 - 250 feet long, with deep ravines on each side of it and a 90-degree turn at the bottom. We live near Seattle so we do get some winter weather but not much. Mostly it’s just rain.

I’m trying to figure out if I should be concerned about this or not. I want that parcel to stay empty! We’re also thinking about buying it from him. But informing our decision is: would anyone (sane) try to build on a piece of land like this? To me, I don’t think I’d want to have to make that drive all the time, particularly not in the winter. FYI this wouldn’t be a horse property, just a house in the forest.

[trubandloki]

@PonyRiderMom

Our neighbor is saying he’s going to put in a driveway on the empty parcel next to us and try to sell it. The driveway would be a 16 % grade and 200 - 250 feet long, with deep ravines on each side of it and a 90-degree turn at the bottom. We live near Seattle so we do get some winter weather but not much. Mostly it’s just rain.

I’m trying to figure out if I should be concerned about this or not. I want that parcel to stay empty! We’re also thinking about buying it from him. But informing our decision is: would anyone (sane) try to build on a piece of land like this? To me, I don’t think I’d want to have to make that drive all the time, particularly not in the winter. FYI this wouldn’t be a horse property, just a house in the forest.

The whole 250’ is 16% grade, so over all they are going up (or down) about 32’ over 200’?

Zig zagging something with more slope is a way to make the drive less pitched so having turns in it would not be a huge deal.

That seems like quite the expense for the current owner.

I guess what the deciding factor would be how useful is the property otherwise.

There are a couple of houses near where I live that have steep driveways. In the winter months they park near the road.

In the long run, if you want control over a piece of land you have to buy it.

[LaurieB]

@PonyRiderMom

Our neighbor is saying he’s going to put in a driveway on the empty parcel next to us and try to sell it. The driveway would be a 16 % grade and 200 - 250 feet long, with deep ravines on each side of it and a 90-degree turn at the bottom. We live near Seattle so we do get some winter weather but not much. Mostly it’s just rain.

I’m trying to figure out if I should be concerned about this or not. I want that parcel to stay empty! We’re also thinking about buying it from him. But informing our decision is: would anyone (sane) try to build on a piece of land like this? To me, I don’t think I’d want to have to make that drive all the time, particularly not in the winter. FYI this wouldn’t be a horse property, just a house in the forest.

Does that driveway lead to the only place on the property that a house could be built? If not, I would think someone might buy the property to build on and place the house somewhere where the driveway wouldn’t be a problem.

[Heinz_57]

@PonyRiderMom

But informing our decision is: would anyone (sane) try to build on a piece of land like this?

There are people out there who will buy anything and try to build on it. If you can afford to buy it and don’t want people living there, highly recommend doing so ASAP. Maybe you can get him to give you a deal since he wouldn’t have to spend thousands putting in a driveway.

There is an empty lot next to the low side of our property, and it’s basically a swamp 9 months of the year. Zero drainage, no driveway, just a swamp covered in thick brush with a pond at the back. Someone bought it last spring and they have been trying to get it ready to build a house on ever since. If (when) they realize what an insurmountable and expensive task it is, I will be moving whatever mountain necessary to buy it!

[PonyRiderMom]

Part of this is, we’re trying to figure out what to offer him for it. What he’s suggesting we pay seems really excessive. Basically it was a 20-acre parcel that he paid 400k for. He split the bottom five acres into a separate parcel that is very buildable and is trying to put an apartment complex there. Now he’s trying to sell us the upper 15 acres, which is not very buildable, for 350k. We’re trying to figure out how much less to offer him. If that kind of driveway is offputting to most people, I feel like we could offer a lot less.

It goes downhill into the property. So there would be water runoff in the winter, too. The steepest part is at the bottom, where the 90-degree turn is. Looking at the topo map, it looks like the slope there is at least 20%.

It can’t be zig-zagged due to the topography and presence of streams that run down both sides of the proposed driveway – it would run into their buffer zones. There is no other place to put a house on the entire 15 acres.

[trubandloki]

Probably worth talking to someone who works in real-estate to ask them what the parcel is valued at.

In the end, it does not matter what you want to pay him, it matters what this person is willing to take for it.
Though offering what you are willing to pay might set a seed that later on, if the property does not sell for the high price, this owner might come back to you and take your price.

[PonyRiderMom]

Yes actually my husband had that idea and we’re going to do that. We’re already working with a realtor because we’re trying to buy a condo for my in-laws up here. He hasn’t been the most useful, so I’m not sure what he will tell us. It’s a pretty unique parcel, in that it’s really close to town and large, but topographically very challenging. Our plan is to ask him, if someone put in that driveway like this guy is saying, and had the electric and septic set up, what might this be worth?

He will probably say something like “It’s worth whatever someone will pay for it.” When we made an offer on this one condo, we asked him what he thought we should offer. He said “Offer whatever you want and they can counter it if they want.” Well, yeah, duh.

We had a better realtor when we bought this place, but he has retired to be a stay at home grandfather LOL and is no longer interested in real estate. We’ve asked!

[clanter]

@PonyRiderMom

If that kind of driveway is offputting to most people, I feel like we could offer a lot less.

well the potential buyer would need to find contractors willing to climb that grade hauling construction equipment and materials, the normal Max grade on an interstate highway is 6% which is hard enough…without having a 90 degree turn

[FitToBeTied]

If you draw straight line from the road to our house, it is about a third of a mile and is a 15% grade. However the driveway follows a creek and a ravine and averages about a 5% grade. At the very top it is 10% and makes a 90 turn.

Depending on how the driveway is run it could be very doable.

[PonyRiderMom]

There’s only one place to put a driveway and the resulting grade of the driveway is 16%. The overall slope of the land there is apparently more like 20 - 25%.

[Amberley]

That driveway would not be legal where I live today unless it was paved. Dirt and gravel driveways that steep spill sediment out onto the road every time it rains and it’s a huge hazard for drivers or they spill water to the house. You would have to have water control or some kind of bends in it. So look into that before you make an offer- call the city or county and ask about driveway regulations.

[cardinale]

@Amberley

So look into that before you make an offer- call the city or county and ask about driveway regulations.

Excellent point–will the city or county even let him build on it? That would make a huge difference in what it’s worh. Also, are there any other neighbors who might be your competition to buy?

[rulex]

Land is at a premium in your area. I drive by properties all the time where I look at the driveway and say hell no would I ever want that to be my driveway, especially in winter. But people clearly built it and live there. So I would not be surprised if someone would indeed buy it.

When I was actively looking for property, one 5 acre bare lot came up in an area where I knew several people and also knew they all had issues with their wells running dry. Someone bought it and construction started on what was looking like it was going to be a fancy and expensive house. Clearly they didn’t share my concerns. I do really wonder what their well situation turned out to be.

[Bonnie2]

Second checking local regulations. It is one thing to plan a driveway and another to actually get the permits. In my area the engineering alone would be 5 figures.

[trubandloki]

@Amberley

That driveway would not be legal where I live today unless it was paved. Dirt and gravel driveways that steep spill sediment out onto the road every time it rains and it’s a huge hazard for drivers or they spill water to the house. You would have to have water control or some kind of bends in it. So look into that before you make an offer- call the city or county and ask about driveway regulations.

I thought it read that the slope was away from the road, the road was at the high point.

[Mango20]

I think I did build on a driveway like this. I don’t know the actual slope percentage, but it’s steep for the first 225 feet or so, and very straight (which is scary when it gets icy). I have a flag lot with only 50’ of width at that part of the lot, so there’s no way to put in a graceful curve or anything. They could have made it less steep by not bringing it up to grade a quickly. This is what happens when you buy acreage you can afford when you’re in your 20s.

It’s a pain in the ass when it snows. It washes out in big rain storms. It limited the length of trailer I could buy since the road is narrow as well. It’s what I dislike the most about where I live. However, I’ve lived here for 27 years and managed okay with it.

Here it is in 2015, the current street view. I have since mitigated all but the worst thunderstorm washout by putting in a speed bump/diversion at the top of the hill to slow down the water.

[PonyRiderMom]

He told us he’s expecting to pay $100k for the driveway.

[Sister7]

That means the pre-driveway price would be $250k, right? Plus you buying it would reduce a lot of his hassle and that might be worth something to him. I do think someone would buy it and build on it since you said it’s a large parcel close to town.

You can research comps yourself on Redfin or Zillow. Set the filters to “sold” and a similar acreage range, and then go through each one and find the ones that are the most similar and compare the $/acre. Raw land becomes more valuable the more usable and more de-risked it is. Loans are easier to get (and cheaper) for land that already has access, water, power, and septic/sewer. The more of these things that are missing make it slightly cheaper as the buyer is taking on more risk.

[reinerspook]

I would check with the local planning commission to see if it would be possible to get a permit to put a driveway on that land. I’m a court reporter and used to transcribe our local (county in WA state) planning commission hearings and sat through many hearings where people got bad news about their proposals due to issues with property grades. If it were me, I’d rather find out before I bought the property.

[PonyRiderMom]

So that’s one other thing we’re kind of torn about – do we let him put the driveway in himself and then charge us more for the parcel? Where we are, we’re caught between expanding Urban Growth Area and increasing land use regulations, so we’re not sure, if he doesn’t put the driveway in now and we bought it without it (we don’t need the driveway for it to have value for us), is it possible that if we wanted a driveway there in 10 years the land use regulations would have changed to where it wouldn’t be allowed at all? Or maybe they would be a lot less restrictive because it would be UGA then and the county would want to see it developed. If we wanted to sell it at some point but there was no driveway and no possibility of putting in a driveway, then I can’t imagine who would want to buy it.

So on the one hand, we’re thinking, let’s let him put that driveway in. He was going to bring the electricity down at the same time, and get the septic permit. If he does all that work, then the property has more lasting value. Also it’s possible that like @reinerspook said, he wouldn’t even get permission to do it. Better to let him find out. If it turns out that he can’t build the driveway, then maybe we make a lowball offer at that time. But if he got it done, then the work would be done we wouldn’t have to worry about permits for it in the future.

But on the other hand, of course he would pass that cost on to us. He thinks it would cost $100k to do that work, so in my mind that means probably more like $150k. And he’d want to make a profit on that, not just barely recoup his costs. It’s not worth it to us RIGHT NOW to pay that much money for a driveway that we will never use.

So that’s the other thing – do we make an offer now, with the property “as is” at a lower price but with possibly less lasting value, or should we wait and let him go through the hoops of doing all that work, and possibly not even being successful, but then us having to pay more?

The only sure thing is, we don’t want to see a house on that parcel.