Would you buy an adult horse that you felt you needed to do a tieback on?

[vxf111]

I think I already know the answer but I am curious to get some input…

Let’s say you could buy a horse that was a terrific horse in every way, except he roared and you rode the hunters. The roar is sufficiently loud that you really feel the horse would need a tieback to be a hunter. Horse is 8 years old. Horse is very very cheap, sufficiently cheap that even adding the COST of the tieback on to the price would still make the horse very attractively priced. You have the finances, ability to handle the horse before/after surgery, and access to New Bolton to perform the surgery. Assume New Bolton has reviewed the case and says the horse is a candidate.

Would you consider the horse? Or would you say “this horse should go to someone who does a discipline where it doesn’t matter”?

I actually have a horse who had a tieback. 100% success, no roaring, no negative consequences/side effects. But it was done when he was YOUNG. Long before I owned him. So I both knew it was a success and wasn’t the one who made the decision to do it.

Curious your thoughts on this hypothetical (I’ve simplified the situation somewhat for the sake of asking the question but it’s a legitimate question I am currently working through with regards to a real horse).

[hunterrider33]

Coming from someone who had one that had a failed tie back, then an entire flap removal, then had a stitch left in that got infected leading to a 3rd surgery which left him partially paralyzed in his throat (annatomically incorrect but I can’t remember which part became paralyzed)… leading him to start aspirating which ultimately lead him to be euthanized where we found he only had 10% use of his lungs due to pneumonia :eek:… I wouldn’t do it or ever buy one that’s had a tie back. Also he still slightly roared through all this and had no voice (couldn’t whinny), but he was 2nd in the nation in the junior hunters so didn’t roar too loud.

Now i know this is probably extremely rare (I have the worst weird horse stuff happen!) and I know people have had easy successful tie backs and been fine. Also I think my horses original 2 surgeries were done in Argentina so I’m not sure how great the surgeon was.

[skyy]

What would you do with him if the surgery is not a success? I think that might be a major factor in your decision. Is he nice enough that you could resell him to do something else (jumpers, for example) and not lose money?

[vxf111]

I think the horse is nice enough/cheap enough that he could still be resold at a profit as a pleasure horse/dressage horse-- assuming he hadn’t been 100% ruined by a botched surgery/bad outcome.

My real deep seeded question is… is it cruel/selfish to put a horse through a surgery to make him appropriate for a discipline? (a horse you don’t own who might be bought instead by someone who would not feel the need to do the surgery)

Not so much the financial issue. But it’s a fair issue to raise.

[ElementFarm]

I probably would do it. I have a gelding I bought at three, and had the tie back at 5. he’s been fine ever since with no issues or complications.

Considerations include:
Is resale important to you? Even successful tie-backs may scare potential buyers.
Is horse suitable for a different disciple in procedure isn’t successful? If he could dabble in something else where making a ‘noise’ wouldn’t be held against him, it gives you options in the off chance the surgery fails.

If you’re comfortable with after care, and have the time to wait before you can compete in the hunters, and horse is nice horse who you’d have fun with and be competitive with, after a successful procedure, then I say go for it.

[beowulf]

That’s a tough call… It really depends on the grade/severity, what exact surgery, as there’s several different kinds depending on the severity. If it’s ‘just’ tie-back as in laryngoplasty, maybe… but it’s a big maybe. The management of these horses has to change completely and everyone has to be on board with that. My friend’s horse had tie-back in the early 2000s and you would be surprised how few barns want to accommodate a horse that has the surgery (meaning: food must be floor-fed, hay must be in a haybag hung low, etc). These are not special snowflake wants, they are legitimate, vet prescribed needs. My own vet thinks that any horse with any respiratory condition needing surgery needs to be out 24/7 and never in a dusky, dark barn again (he prefers they do the first month of stall rest either in a polebarn or in a medical paddock too!) - I don’t think he’s wrong, but it’s not a realistic management measure most barns can deliver.

As someone who has been involved in both the care immediately after the surgery and forward (though never owning a horse needing it) it is not something I would take on lightly. Especially not for resale. Now, if my own horse needed the surgery it would be done in a heartbeat, but he’s not exactly resale material at this point.

The layup portion can be really tough, depending on the management. I know for the horses I took care of, there were real concerns about infection and in one case, the horse developed a chronic cough and later, laryngeal collapse. It’s important that people recognize it is not a permanent solution - eventually you will have to do it again, IME. That and, there’s very little guarantee the surgery will be successful.

My personal experience, having dealt with many eventers that had the surgery, is that eventually they always need to step down – even if they’re doing real simple stuff that is no harder than a HJ round, like BN-N… I’ve also seen a surprising correlation between allergy intolerance with these horses, that may or may not be related … but every single horse I’ve taken care of with tie-back surgery has had a real problem with spring-time allergens to the point where they need to be kept in during the day… and, N=1 here, but I’ve only dealt with extreme allergies in horses that received some sort of surgery to correct a breathing issue.

And then there’s the thriftiness of them - all of the horses I took care of that had the surgery became hard keepers after – hard to keep a topline on them, very hard to condition them, hard to keep them going if they had time off… etc…etc… Several of them I knew well before their surgery and already had these issues. Of course, they still have some degree of exercise intolerance, and I’m not sure if that correlates into their condition… but I really think it does.

However, these were all really nice horses, and I can certainly understand the pull one would have to consider it.

That being said, I have come along with my trainers and others on shopping trips before, and most of them will not consider a horse with tie-back surgery for purchase – so from a resale perspective, it can be quite hard. One of the horses at the barn I managed is every AA’s dream horse - older tall, dark, handsome, quiet, sensible, kick&pull ride, 17hh ex-One Star hunk and we practically had to beat down doors to get people to look at him… IMHO it’s because we were very upfront in the ad about his condition… and it scared a lot of people away. He was a free lease off property or a part-lease on property - not like he was unsound, crazy, or expensive! I LOVED him and didn’t really want to see him go - other than his care (which was standard for a horse with tie-back) he was one of the easiest horses to handle and was always the first one to greet you (with a really muted, hoarse whistly throaty noise) in the morning.

But then there are the exceptions to my experience, which are many – and lots of TBs have tieback surgery and iMHO, some owners are none the wiser until they have to scope the horse and find out there’s already been a visit or two down there before…

[Blinky]

How loud is it and where are you wanting to show?
I’ve seen “noisy” adult hunters pin at rated shows. I’m not talking WEF but decent A shows.

[vxf111]

BW, I find your post interesting as I own a former roarer and have boarded with many who have had the surgery and NONE had the issues you mention. Somerset does not have any of those symptoms. Not even allergies to environmental things. I had him tested. He only has FOOD allergies (I was sure he would have allergies to pollen/dust but he didn’t). He ate from a regular feed bucket and had hay on the ground. He’s not exercise intolerant. Super easy keeper. He had it done at 2 years old (IIRC) and is now 17 with nary a relapse or need to re-do. In fact, I’ve never know a horse to need a re-do if the first surgery was effective.

However, thinking of the horses I know where were roarers who had subsequent surgery-- ALL had the surgery done when they were young. So I’m not doubting those side effects can happen, but I wonder if the odds change dramatically depending on the age of the surgery.

I don’t know what grade this horse is or what surgery specifically would be needed. I’m not really at that stage of the decisionmaking process yet, I oversimplified things for the sake of narrowing the question. He’s loud enough to hear on a video. I am at most a 2’6-3’0 rider. Mostly local and local As. I have no designs or frankly interest in taking over the world at WEF. But I also have no interest in a horse who is going to get dinged or worse SPUN before I even step into the ring. I don’t want a hunter who roars. If I was to get the horse I would do the surgery.

I just feel in my gut that it’s not the right thing to do. That it’s not fair to take a healthy horse and expose him to surgery with risks to make him fit a discipline I want to do. Given that I don’t own him and someone else might want him for a discipline where they wouldn’t do the surgery.

[btswass]

I actually bought a horse that was classified as a 2.5/4 roarer. His left larynx is partially paralyzed. I found this out during the pre purchase exam and bought him anyway because he was cheap and a project. I immediately started him on respiratory supplements and we haven’t had any problems with his breathing. Yes he looses his breath faster than most horses but his roaring isn’t noticeable and we also show the hunters. It may just be a fluke that this worked out for us but if he’s that nice of a horse and that cheap I say go for it. If supplements and natural options don’t work out and you think he could be an easy resell there isn’t much to lose. But of course thats easier said behind a keyboard

[visorvet]

I would personally have him evaluated before turning myself inside-out on this decision. Perhaps he’s not a tie back candidate at all, or perhaps his problem is such that he can be helped by simply lasering out some soft tissue in a standing/sedated procedure. It sounds like you really like the horse otherwise and the price is right, so why not take that next step and then decide? I certainly would not purchase the horse before doing that.

[Capall]

If your gut says no, then go with that. If your gut is “meh” and you don’t know, and your’e REALLY interested in the horse, have him evaluated and make a decision from there. Do you have access to someone who has a really stellar reputation for performing the surgery?

[supernatural]

No. There are too many other horses out there to settle for that. Had it done, not successful, still made noise and no, would never do again.

[findeight]

Probably not. Depends on exactly what is wrong and what you would do with the horse if it wasn’t successful. Trainers whose barns I was in didn’t recommend purchasing these so never around many. Maybe 4 over 20 years or so, weren’t mine so didn’t have the details. Two I know did have the surgery but stepped down and were still noisy, another one had a rough rehab after surgery and the owners took him home from the clinic, never saw him again. There may have been another two or three but they left before they ever went to a show as trainers advised they were likely not going to pin and recommended looking into the surgery or a career change. These were all older horses.

If you have the money for the surgery, any rehab complications and an alternative career plan plus you don’t heed to sell it to get another? Your choice. If you board out and that’s your only horse? Probably not.

Nobody I know had any luck with supplements.

[vxf111]

Yeah, I just can’t do it. I appreciate the input. I would forever feel like sh*t if the surgery made the horse worse. Someone will use him for dressage/pleasure where the roaring won’t be an automatic impediment. I don’t regret for a second buying mine who had it done when he was young (and I would do that again) but I can’t subject an adult horse to unnecessary surgery to fit a discipline.

[equisusan]

Hmmm interesting. I bought a 5yo who flew through his ppe with no issues and then started to roar once he was shipped cross country and started consistent work. He is a classic type… tall 17.1h, long neck. He did well in the baby greens his first year of showing but then in certain venues (Vermont Summer Festival - yikes) and if he was tense at all you could hear it after we moved him up to the pregreens and I felt a little foolish. I pondered about whether to do it and it seemed all I heard was stories where it didn’t work for warmbloods but then if I spoke to people with TBs they seemed to have all success stories. He is a TB so I took the recommendation of the surgeon at New Bolton from these forums and got it done when he was 7. No problems and it was worth every cent. I’ve since sold him to one of my best friends and she does him in the AO hunters. Honestly not sure I would have bought him if he’d roared during the prepurchase but alls well that ends well.

[BroncoMo]

Don’t want to hijack but gotta question. Hope you don’t mind vxf111. I’m sure this depends on the level but, how loud is too loud? I show QH so obviously not high level A circuit. But I have one that was just started over fences who is a mild roarer. You can hear him on video when he’s closer but doesn’t sound like a freight train (unless he’s playing race horse). My vet isn’t concerned and actually advised against surgery unless it worsens; said that surgery is generally less successful on the milder cases. Trainer doesn’t seem bothered by it. I’m just curious at what point is it considered a penalty; or is any amount of roaring a penalty?

[invinoveritas]

That horse would have to be perfect in every other way for me to buy it…

[vxf111]

I have seen horses get not used for any kind of audible breathing that made it to the judge’s ears (not talking about rhythmic snuffing but actual roaring). At least in my area I have run into judges that are sensitive about it.

There’s no hiding this horse’s noise. It’s AUDIBLE. Every stride. I don’t know how it’s been graded but it’s quite loud. On iphone video you can hear it when the horse is on the other end of the 100x200 ring. So, that’s pretty loud.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

If I liked everything else about the horse…probably. I’m surprised people think the aftercare is a big deal. We have Three in our barn who had it. All older horses. Two are competing at a high level and had the surgery fairly recent. I own the barn but these are not my horses but I’ve had horses in the past who had it and one of my broodmares had it while at the track. It’s not a big deal to feed them on the ground. My barn is quite airy and not dust. Dark and dusty isn’t good for any horse…,especially competition horses. But like all things there is a risk.

[Seagram]

I’ve dealt with one older-ish (9 yrs) who went through successfull tie back surgery, (not mine, but as barn manager had to care for him), and it wasn’t a big deal. A bit gross at first, with the after care, but completely healed and back to normal. Also something to consider, without the surgery, this horse had something like 50-60% lung capacity, and would probably get worse without, so it did improve his quality of life, being able to breathe better.