Would you buy an ugly face? A small eye?

[Libby2563]

Interesting…a TB I had for a couple years had a similar ridge and his eye was not the largest or most open either. I wonder if they are related.

That horse was the kindest and gamest all-around horse I’ve ever known. He excelled at dressage, eventing, trail riding, foxhunting, Extreme Cowboy Races, team penning, and mounted shooting. I taught my niece on him when she was 9 years old. Super horse and it honestly never occurred to me that his face was ugly even if it was a bit atypical.

I agree that for resale looks should be a consideration but if his head/eye are similar to his sire and his sire’s progeny photos I don’t see a problem. From your description I was imagining much worse.

[Against_All_Odds1]

[QUOTE=Pally;9011921]
Hey I figured out I can still copy and quote, just not use the stupid button.

Those ears are awesome! It certainly is in the eyes of the beholder…I knew someone who loved her big eared jumper mares. She started doing more Western stuff, and told another girl she liked her horse’s big ears…girl looked at her like she was nuts or being sarcastic - it’s not generally a compliment in quarter horse circles :lol:

I don’t have a picture, and won’t be posting one unless I buy him. I think it would be a little cruel to post someone else’s horse under the title “ugly head” on the web. His sire’s page is here, you can see the “type” particularly in progeny pictures.[/QUOTE]
I think they are all cute looking! lol.

Though I’m a low market buyer so take it for what it’s worth…

2’6" rider and proud of it :lol:

[beowulf]

Pally, that’s very much an Icecapade face, through and through. I think that type of profile is handsome: I prefer convex profiles with wideset, deep, flat eyes - I even like a little bit of ‘roman nobility’ in the nose so long as it does not interfere with performance (which it rarely does).

This stallion exemplifies the type of face & eyes I love:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rare+brick

Eyes change over time, but I prefer a liquid one. Seeing a ‘hard’ eye would not dissuade me so much as it would lead me to believe the horse is hurting somewhere, or had been hurting somewhere for a long time and became dull.

[beowulf]

Pally, that’s very much an Icecapade face, through and through. I think that type of profile is handsome: I prefer convex profiles with wideset, deep, flat eyes - I even like a little bit of ‘roman nobility’ in the nose so long as it does not interfere with performance (which it rarely does).

This stallion exemplifies the type of face & eyes I love:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rare+brick

Eyes change over time, but I prefer a liquid one. Seeing a ‘hard’ eye would not dissuade me so much as it would lead me to believe the horse is hurting somewhere, or had been hurting somewhere for a long time and became dull.

[HJdaydream]

[QUOTE=beowulf;9012926]
Pally, that’s very much an Icecapade face, through and through. I think that type of profile is handsome: I prefer convex profiles with wideset, deep, flat eyes - I even like a little bit of ‘roman nobility’ in the nose so long as it does not interfere with performance (which it rarely does).

This stallion exemplifies the type of face & eyes I love:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/rare+brick

Eyes change over time, but I prefer a liquid one. Seeing a ‘hard’ eye would not dissuade me so much as it would lead me to believe the horse is hurting somewhere, or had been hurting somewhere for a long time and became dull.[/QUOTE]

If you have free time Beowulf and want to post examples of these different types of eyes I would be very interested to see what you mean. What is a liquid eye? A hard eye? I never thought to really classify eyes. When I went to try my horse I noticed you could see the “whites” of his eyes more prominently then some horses but I do not know if there is a term for that eye type. I consider them very “expressive” but still not sure how to describe them.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=HJdaydream;9012969]
If you have free time Beowulf and want to post examples of these different types of eyes I would be very interested to see what you mean. What is a liquid eye? A hard eye? I never thought to really classify eyes. When I went to try my horse I noticed you could see the “whites” of his eyes more prominently then some horses but I do not know if there is a term for that eye type. I consider them very “expressive” but still not sure how to describe them.[/QUOTE]

I should forewarn: I think it is incredibly hard to capture a horse’s eye in a set of photos. One, the glare from the camera flash makes it very hard, and two, it captures a second in time and not ‘real time’… it’d be much easier if you were right next to me and I could walk you through a barn of horses and point out what I see and why.

“eyes are the window to the soul” – you can thank William Shakespeare for that quote

and I think he was right, in some ways.

We have all seen “dull” eyes - those are the eyes of something in pain, shock, or trauma. Characterized by flat, listless lids, little reflection in the gaze, usually unfocused or wearied – the Thousand Yard Stare is a well-documented example of eyes that have beheld trauma. Typically, exhaustion and fatigue can be detected in any living thing by the way they behold something in their vision.

In equines, I think they have no reason to be stoic or hide anything bothering them (certainly not the way people do) so usually with animals, a flat gaze is much more apparent. That and so much of their expression is tied into other aspects of their features: the tightness of their lips and chin, the tenseness of their jaws, the posture of their ears.

A hardened gaze is very similar, though I would venture to say instead of listless lids, they’re flinty and tight; they’re focused on you (instead of vaguely focused, like the TYS) and they’re tough looking.

I actually have a horse that I think embodies the change well enough to post it.

Hard Eyes (immediately post track)
HE1, * this one especially, HE2, HE3, HE4

Soft[er] Eyes:
SE1, SE2, SE3, “soft and liquid here” - though he was nervous as there was a combined driving competition in the BG!

It is my Very Unscientific Opinion that a horse with softer eyes has eyes that allow more light in – due to the lack of tension (IOW the “droop”) of their lower ‘eyelid’ and the lack of furrowing/tension of their upper eyelids. This widening of the eye (and subsequent contraction of the pupil) seems to reflect more light off of the eye.

Different horse (the above horse’s brother though), who I think has very soft and liquid eyes:
1 & what I see as an ‘Intelligent Eye’

Unfortunately, not the greatest picture but this horse had the softest eyes I ever saw: 01

as with everything horses, everything is subjective – what I look for in a soft, liquid eye may be someone else’s “hard-as-hellfire”.

[danceronice]

…I actually like the head on “this one especially” up there.

For me it would only depend if I wanted to flip at a very high price point for a discipline like hunters where if they’re slightly blemished they need to have world-beating action and they’ll still be a slightly lower price. If it’s at a middle-range price point or lower, and/or it’s strictly performance, it wouldn’t bother me. For my own use? I’m at the stage where I just want a horse who’ll do what I want, when I want, with a minimum of fuss and maintenance. If that mean he looks cobbled together from spare parts? Ugly can be cute.

[HJdaydream]

Beowulf- I can’t believe that that is the SAME horse! The eyes look really really different. Just WOW. I really enjoyed seeing the difference. Thank you for taking the time to share. :yes:

[Pally]

Thanks everyone, lots to think about. It seems like there’s a pretty good split amongst the “No way!” and “If it does what I want…” groups, so a whole lot is going to be decided at this trial. Killing everyone with suspense, but mostly me - have to wait til Monday!

Just to clarify, I didn’t want to call his Daddy ugly per se…just that I can see a version of the same characteristics in him. I also watched a video of the sire showing a lot more angles…again, not ugly, but not so carefully photographed either. I do know that if I go with this guy, the right photos will be of utmost importance to pass the “swipe test” that one of the above posters mentioned.

Beowulf, interesting examples. I guess I think of it a little differently - there’s that eye of the beholder. I definitely see the difference in those photos you posted, but I would probably call the first set something like “tense” eyes. When I think of hard eyes, I think of something that gives you the impression that they are scowling or glaring at you. I actually am not so bothered by this on a mare (for personal enjoyment, not resale) because I feel like these are the same ones that might move the earth for you once they let you in their club. But I’m actually quite wary of it when it comes to geldings…because get a nasty gelding that doesn’t want to be “told” the way the old adage goes, they don’t really want to discuss it or be asked either, they just want to give you a big old middle finger. Of course, I’ve seen this behaviour without the hard eye, but still. I don’t have photographs to share, but I’ll try google.
I would say this (not due to the white) or this look hard.
This or this would be a soft, kind eye to me.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Pally;9014793]
Thanks everyone, lots to think about. It seems like there’s a pretty good split amongst the “No way!” and “If it does what I want…” groups, so a whole lot is going to be decided at this trial. Killing everyone with suspense, but mostly me - have to wait til Monday!

Just to clarify, I didn’t want to call his Daddy ugly per se…just that I can see a version of the same characteristics in him. I also watched a video of the sire showing a lot more angles…again, not ugly, but not so carefully photographed either. I do know that if I go with this guy, the right photos will be of utmost importance to pass the “swipe test” that one of the above posters mentioned.

Beowulf, interesting examples. I guess I think of it a little differently - there’s that eye of the beholder. I definitely see the difference in those photos you posted, but I would probably call the first set something like “tense” eyes. When I think of hard eyes, I think of something that gives you the impression that they are scowling or glaring at you. I actually am not so bothered by this on a mare (for personal enjoyment, not resale) because I feel like these are the same ones that might move the earth for you once they let you in their club. But I’m actually quite wary of it when it comes to geldings…because get a nasty gelding that doesn’t want to be “told” the way the old adage goes, they don’t really want to discuss it or be asked either, they just want to give you a big old middle finger. Of course, I’ve seen this behaviour without the hard eye, but still. I don’t have photographs to share, but I’ll try google.
I would say this (not due to the white) or this look hard.
This or this would be a soft, kind eye to me.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree, they were some tense eyes - I think of hard eyes somewhat the same way, but with all things, there’s a spectrum. I think of hard eyes as ‘distrustful eyes’ - eyes that are watching you out of suspicion. I have for sure seen the ‘scowling glaze’ you refer to. Thank god, not in any of my horses.

Someone up thread mentioned Loughan Glen? I found the COTH article:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-loughan-glen

I tried to find some more pictures of eyes I like, but I suppose I don’t do a lot of photo taking for my horses… but one of my KEY criteria when I am looking at a horse off the track is I have to like their eye. It’s okay if their eyes are a little hard, or tense – but I have to be drawn into their gaze. There is a lot to be said about how a horse looks at you: I prefer a wide, deep gaze that studies you, but I am a person that, person-to-person, values eye-contact tremendously.

I have passed on quite a few horses on the track because I did not like the way their eyes looked. It sounds like a vain aesthetic, I’m sure, but I do think eyes tell a lot about a horse. I’ve been very, very happy with all the TBs we’ve taken home so far. Of all things, it was my mother (also a horse person) who I learned this from.

[sirensong4]

Excited to hear how he moves and works!

Just my $0.2 on the issue though–as a buyer, I won’t look at a pig eyed horse, ever. It’s a personal preference, but as i grow older, I find that my aesthetic requirements are usually fairly accurate predictors of behavior. I know what kind of horse I like, and evaluate prospects accordingly.

My pony project has the biggest and goopiest eye I’ve ever seen on a horse. I would not have looked twice at her Craigslist ad, until I saw her big sad eye in the listing photos.

This is her wearing a frisbee. She’s been a dream to break and train. We are making our rated USDF debut this spring. IMHO, her big calm soft eye has a lot to do with her trainability.

I will say that my first thought when the OP said the horse had a big head bump and squishy eyelids was that it had suffered some sort of head trauma. I agree with other posters, that the forehead ridge pictured on the sire isn’t that much of a defect.

[4THEHORSES]

I think a lot of people would find my TB ugly. His head/eyes are fine but he pretty much looks like he was built form spare parts. Nothing is in proportion to anything else, he has a thick fetlock from injury and a few scars and scrapes.

[Alibhai_s_Alibar]

But it’s the eyes themselves that make it really odd. They are tiny …or maybe they are actually large but just sunk way in there behind all his soft floppy eyelids. I don’t think that I’ve ever seen anything quite like it. The handful of horses I can think of with a small eye have had almost overly “tight” eyelids. Also, what I can actually see of it seems like a very “soft” eye. The seller says he is very sweet, and it truly seems like he is a doll (though I’ll certainly be keeping an eye on the attitude as we get him doing something in the indoor).

I saw that this thread popped up so I dug up an example of the eye I have in mind. Is this similar?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/alibar/Eyes/eye.jpg

And this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/alibar/Eyes/eye2.jpg

[Foxtrot_s]

I’ve known lots of stellar horses who are solid citizens. But these horses are
often relegated to school strings or trail horses or perhaps a purchase by new horse owner…myself - looks matter, and I know that is shallow. But if I was looking and the horse was perfect in every other way, well, maybe.

I’m not a believer is whorls, positions of such whorls, heights, etc., but narrow between the eyes does look piggy and I’d check our his generosity.

Love is in the eye of the beholder - a horse you love looks just as dear in the morning when you go out to feed.

[Cheap_Trick]

Bumping this out of curiosity. Pally, what did you decide?

[Pally]

Cheap Trick (and anyone else who the suspense was killing)…

I did decide to go ahead and buy him. But sorry, to further kill you, there are no pictures, as I haven’t actually got him “home” yet [looking at boarding barns is one of the main reasons I’ve been too busy to get on here and update, lol].

It just didn’t seem as bad the second time I looked at him…still not a big old doe eye, but better when he “awake” and moving than when he was in sleepy snuggle mode the first time I saw him. I still liked the looks of him when I looked down at his feet and legs :lol: and I liked the way he reacted to me. What can I say, I just got that “there’s something about him” feeling. I trust that someone down the line will get it too. And I’m going to have a ton of fun in the mean time.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Pally;9026479]
Cheap Trick (and anyone else who the suspense was killing)…

I did decide to go ahead and buy him. But sorry, to further kill you, there are no pictures, as I haven’t actually got him “home” yet [looking at boarding barns is one of the main reasons I’ve been too busy to get on here and update, lol].

It just didn’t seem as bad the second time I looked at him…still not a big old doe eye, but better when he “awake” and moving than when he was in sleepy snuggle mode the first time I saw him. I still liked the looks of him when I looked down at his feet and legs :lol: and I liked the way he reacted to me. What can I say, I just got that “there’s something about him” feeling. I trust that someone down the line will get it too. And I’m going to have a ton of fun in the mean time.[/QUOTE]

If you like the horse himself, that there are parts you would rather have a different look to them doesn’t really matter.

I have one such horse, that same type head, in quarter horses can be the Doc Olena head, he is double bred there thru Smart Little Lena, so comes to it honestly.
You can see that only from one angle, the profile, where his head bones with little definition show up, otherwise his head looks nice from the front and, like you noticed, his face changes with his different expressions.

Mine is a nice, dependable, uncomplicated horse, without quirks to him, something many appreciate in their horses.

Maybe yours will be that also.

[Cheap_Trick]

That’s awesome, Pally! Gut feelings never lie. Someone will certainly be charmed by him. :yes:

[HJdaydream]

Congratulations Pally!!!

Can’t wait to hear how he works out for you