Would you hot shot in this case???

[TrueColours]

A client bred her mare to my stallion on May 27th

The vet checked her today (Day 19) and she is not in foal and has a 24mm follicle on one side and a 25 on the other. Uterine tone is good. Mild edema. And there is a recent CL.

The vet has recommended hot shotting her this Friday and breeding around Wednesday of next week.

The vet is a good, capable young vet but is by no means a repro expert nor does repro work comprise much of her practice

Next Wednesday would be - technically speaking - Day 27 post last ovulation, but with the recent CL in evidence, it appears she split cycled. There was a smaller follicle when she was bred on the 27th which the vet felt would regress. It now appears that it didn’t

I disagree with hot shotting this mare at all let alone right now with the CL in evidence. I think they may end up regressing the mare if they do but I also wasn’t the one doing the U/S - I am just reading the sheet of paper left with the client

Any thoughts?

Thanks so much

[Texarkana]

Call me crazy, but if she’s at day 19 right now with ~25mm follicles, I don’t see what benefit there is to gain by short cycling her? Either way she should ovulate in about a week… no?

[tuckawayfarm]

I haven’t heard the term “hot shotting”, but I think you are referring to prostaglandin?

The vet is probably hoping to get rid of the CL that is present, so she will come back in heat. In a normal cycle, the mare’s hormones would take care of the CL that formed after the ovulation you bred on. The recent CL is preventing her from cycling normally.

If you use the two microdoses (1/10th of a normal dose given a day apart), you won’t get the uncomfortable side effects.

I’ve only dealt with split cycles once and it was years ago. I think the size of the follicles present when you treat her can make a big difference in her response and it’s not foolproof, but I can understand why the vet is suggesting it.

Good luck!

[TrueColours]

Texarkana - in a perfect world, with no hormonal help, if left to her own devices, without that CL present, she should be a breed this Saturday/Sunday. The recent CL is going to prevent her from proceeding normally

Also ideally, the vet should come back on Friday to check the progress and then again on Monday/Tuesday to see what effect the Lute has had on everything so we can target a breeding date effectively but she is on a limited budget for breeding and is trying to manage this as best she can

I did speak with my vet last night on another issue and mentioned this one as well to get his opinion and he felt it was 50/50 whether it would progress those follicles or regress them. Early on in the season he would recommend not doing so but as we are now approaching the end of June, he would also be more inclined to “go for it”

The client also said in April, the mare had strong heat cycles that you could easily tell what was going on. In May and June - absolutely nothing. She needs the vet to let her know what is going on every step of the way

Thanks tucktaway. Makes sense. See if the Lute can make the CL disappear and hope it doesn’t regress the follicles in the process …

I have had more split cycles, non existent cycles, hemafollicles, hanging follicles that wont ovulate, regressing follicles, etc this breeding season than any other time in recent memory. Its just crazy! And then mares that confirm in foal and lose it between 30 and 60 days to make it even more frustrating …

[ASBJumper]

Yep, Lute would be to get rid of the “persistent CL”. Same thing happened to me in 2007 - mare had a persistent CL and wasn’t progressing, so we gave the lutalyse, and it worked - she came into a nice, proper heat (not sure how long after, I could dig up my records though) and we bred, and she caught, and delivered a gorgeous colt in June '08.

[TrueColours]

I started this same thread on my FB page and a vet friend of mine posted this link:

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Prostaglandin.shtml

which is basically saying that when dealing with follicles <30mm (which is the case here) the Lute can regress them (which was my initial concern)

I guess the moral of the story is that yes - the Lute will work on the CL that needs to go away but unless the follicles are +30mm, you run the risk of sending them backwards and not forwards …

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;8194981]
I started this same thread on my FB page and a vet friend of mine posted this link:

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Prostaglandin.shtml

which is basically saying that when dealing with follicles <30mm (which is the case here) the Lute can regress them (which was my initial concern)

I guess the moral of the story is that yes - the Lute will work on the CL that needs to go away but unless the follicles are +30mm, you run the risk of sending them backwards and not forwards …[/QUOTE]

Makes sense… so I guess it depends on how badly you want to breed on this cycle or not. My memory is fuzzy, like I said it was 8 years ago, but I think we gave her the lutalyse to get rid of the CL and basically scrapped that cycle, bred on the next one… but I’m pretty sure we didn’t have to wait 3 weeks, I wanna say it was more like 10-14 days. Now you’ve got me wondering, I’m going to go through my records tonight when I get home, cuz I’m curious…

[TrueColours]

Thanks ASB. The Mare Owner is watching this thread as well. She is really betwixt and between on what to do

Much appreciated

[tuckawayfarm]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;8194981]
I started this same thread on my FB page and a vet friend of mine posted this link:

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Prostaglandin.shtml

which is basically saying that when dealing with follicles <30mm (which is the case here) the Lute can regress them (which was my initial concern)

I guess the moral of the story is that yes - the Lute will work on the CL that needs to go away but unless the follicles are +30mm, you run the risk of sending them backwards and not forwards …[/QUOTE]

The way I read that, the problem with regression is with follicles greater than 30mm.

“Another possible problem to be faced when dealing with a mare with a >3 cm follicle present is that in some cases, there will not be a rapid onset of estrus and ovulation, but rather a regression of the follicle, with a delayed onset of estrus”

[ASBJumper]

TC - not sure if your friend/client is still following this thread, but…

I went through my breeding records for '07 last night. We noticed the “persistent CL” less than a week after she came out of heat, her written notes suggested a possible “split heat”, we decided to leave her be and re-check her in 7 days (this was June 29th).

It doesn’t actually say in the notes whether she had gotten rid of the CL on her own or whether we decided to help her along, but 7 days later we gave her lutalyse (this was July 6th), and when we checked her again on July 9th she was coming into heat, I ordered semen on July 10th and she was inseminated on July 11th.

And she caught.

Not sure if that’s at all helpful. Please keep us posted, I’m interested to know how it goes for your friend!

[gumtree]

I only breed TBs so only live cover. Never heard of “hot shot”. As another asked is term the same as “short cycling” wit AI?

This TB breeding season was a bit tough. A lot of “open”, maiden mares took a while to start cycling and some to cycle normally. Several “hung”. Misery likes company so I checked with my broodmare manager friends in KY and they encountered the same.

Not sure how much “teasing” is done with AI. But I have found a “little foreplay” sure helps get them in the “mood” and get “things” moving along. Cuts down on repro vet expenses also.

[Calamber]

Right, teasing the mares always helps as will the presence of other mares who are cycling normally.