I know of a horse that was nerved at about the same age that was doing the high a/o jumpers before he was nerved. He went on to teach many people how to jump and show for many years, up to 3’6" that I personally saw. He was put down at I think 20 when he broke his shoulder in a pasture accident.
Before I knew this horse I would have said nerving for a pasture ornament only. Now? That horse seemed to have a pretty happy, fulfilling life, so I wouldn’t judge so quickly.
Horse had clean rads a year ago. Horse is 8 yrs old. Extensive dx and it seems they finally settled on calling it navicular. Am I accurate in my skimming?
I agree I don’t think this is in fact, navicular. Pull a Lyme titer on this horse. Intermittent lameness unresponsive to stall rest, therapeutic shoes, injections, NSAIDS screams Lyme to me. But you didn’t ask that.
Yes, I’d have a neurectomy done on a horse I’d only ride WT and sometimes C on good footing for the rest of his life. I’d also be sure to know the signs for laminitis in a horse who’s unable to feel his feet. Watching feet fall off on unaware horses is NOT fun.
No, I would not send an unsound horse ‘for free’ down the road to a dubious future. I’d euth myself once I saw his pain wasn’t managed well i.e.: visible lameness, consistently elevated heart rate, increasing time laying down…
I would never jump a horse who’s had a neurectomy. I don’t want to be on top of anything that can’t feel his feet 100% on the ground.
Tough choices for your friend. My sympathies.
[QUOTE=findeight;8038181]
Think poster was referring to her own horse who had xperimental shoulder surgery and is now GP.[/QUOTE]
Ah yes you are correct, sorry, I skimmed a bit too much!
[QUOTE=Libby2563;8037956]
Thankfully I’m not in the position to decide myself, but a close friend’s teenage daughter has a horse that the vet has recommended nerving. Her parents don’t know much about horses so they have asked me for my opinion and I just don’t know much about it.
The rider is 16 years old and bought the horse last year or so for the purpose of lower-level eventing. When she goes to college in a year or two the assumption is that she will no longer have time to ride (I did, and I don’t know why that’s the assumption, but it is) and was always planning to sell the horse then.
The horse is young…I think 7 or 8 at the oldest? He is an OTTB who was raced unsuccessfully then retrained as an eventer. He vetted fine and had clean x-rays when they bought him over a year ago. Since then they’ve had nothing but problems, including lameness that ranges from acute to indistinct. He has now been diagnosed with navicular syndrome in both front feet. They’ve done therapeutic shoeing, injections, daily Previcox, Osphos, etc. and nothing keeps him sound even for flatwork.
The vet has now recommended nerving the horse. He says that way he won’t be in pain and she could enjoy him until she goes to college. I love and trust this vet, but to me it sounds a bit barbaric. Plus I wonder what their chances are of selling a horse that has been nerved. (Although they will have a hard time rehoming a lame horse too.)
What are people’s opinions on nerving a navicular horse? Is it as barbaric as it sounds?[/QUOTE]
Years ago I saw a horse who was sold by a dealer to a friend, without informing her that he was nerved. She had him a few months and he went lame; vet couldn’t find much but recommended some pasture rest. After a month in the pasture he was lamer, and the vet said probably a hoof abscess and he was treated for that. It did not get better. Finally the horse ran a high fever and stood there just rooted to the ground refusing to move, but the foot was cool. Something that didn’t add up at all. Vet came back pronto, said “I’m not gonna like it” just seeing him from the road, and it was all downhill from there.
Started digging in the hoof and the entire sole fell off in his hand. Beneath it was something that looked like dirt–it was “dry gangrene,” basically dry-rot, because being nerved the poor horse couldn’t tell us that he’d had the entire coffin joint involved in a bone infection, maybe for months, until it was way too late. Vet said he needed to be put down before the entire foot sloughed right off, which would’ve happened later that day. He lashed it together with a Sabre Sneaker just so we could trailer him to his final resting place.
Nowadays the vets on a pre-purchase ALWAYS check for both a nerving scar, and a colic surgery scar, and a finding of either one (undisclosed) is an ABSOLUTE deal-breaker. Which means that horse, if sold, has a very high risk of winding up at the wrong end of the wrong pen after being worked to the bitter end as a “silent cripple.”
If they nerve him, they should be prepared to retire or euthanize, not sell or give away.
Am I understanding correctly that this horse would continue with a career in eventing after being nerved? I don’t think it’s right to nerve any horse for the purpose of maintaining it as a preformance horse, but I could never imagine an eventer safely being ridden again after nerving. Those horses need to jump on all kinds of footing and navigate all kinds of changes in terrain. Way too dangerous for horse and rider.
[QUOTE=2tempe;8038227]
Presuming all diagnostics have been done, there aren’t many options.
- Pasture puff/retirement.
- Nerve and hope it helps the horse for at least a while.
It will impact any future sales effort, but if they do nothing there is no sale opportunity anyway.
Nerves can and do grow back, so solution may not be permanent.
Sounds barbaric but many horses do well and go back to career.[/QUOTE]
This. But I would want to feel 150% sure of the diagnosis (not soft tissue) and i’d want to exhaust all other options first. And then plan to keep/retire/euthanize this horse thereafter.
The ONLY way I’d consider nerving a horse would be so it was pasture sound and kept on my own property. Absolutely NO way would I nerve a horse and then continue to make it work. And then to resell??? NO flipping way would I sell a nerved horse!!! Can’t even believe people think that is okay 
:mad:.
Nope. Never. I’m sure there are many success stories, but I’ve heard many negative ones, like the post above by Lady Eboshi. I get asked if I’m ever going to nerve Fancy pretty often and I always flat-out say “no”.
I think if you have a horse who is no longer responding to treatment like they were before (NSAIDs, corrective shoeing/trimming, injections, tildren etc), then just retire the poor creature to pasture life… there’s no reason to try to continue to work a horse when they’ve gotten to that point.
My appendix has navicular disease (bone degeneration confirmed via MRI). Great new farrier, Tildren, shockwave, coffin joint injections, previxox, isoxuprine, and almost a year later was still lame at the trot. I said I would never nerve my horse, but once I got to this point I had a change of heart.
I had an extensive conversation with the surgeon who explained in his many years of doing neurectomies he’d never had a neuroma formation. They knew his pathology didn’t involved soft tissue and he blocked sound to those nerves. He was going under general anesthesia and the surgeon would be using a technique known for minimizing the neuroma formation. My horse was only 8 at the time and as much as I love him, I decided against paying board/shoes/vet for the next 20 years on a horse I couldn’t ride.
Had the neurectomy done June 2013 and then he injured his knee and had to have surgery to remove the chips in his knee, but he’s been doing great since and we are showing in Pleasure classes and enjoying flatwork just as much as I did Eq, hunters and eventing. I know the nerves can regenerate so I count each sound day as a blessing. I saw nothing barbaric in giving my horse comfort and me enjoying flatwork. More barbaric would be sending him down the free to good home route where worse things could happen. I continue doing at least 2x year foot X-rays to check what’s going on and shoe him just as nicely as before.
Now for a horse they are planning to rehome? That puts another aspect on things I think (rehoming a horse with a chronic issue is a whole other can of worms).
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Can’t say I would feel safe eventing a horse that doesn’t feel his feet.
I did a neurectomy on my gelding in 2010 when we discovered a defect of both navicular bones - similar to fractures, in both front feet. The vet that nerved him felt he could go back into normal work, but I retired him to preserve his soundness as long as we could. He had routine x-rays done to monitor his condition; and we had nearly five good years of sound, happy times before the degeneration caught up with him and we had to let him go this January.
I would do it again in a similar situation - he was 7 years old, too young in my mind to resort to euthanasia. He had a great life and was spoiled rotten. 
I wouldn’t do it to keep a horse rideable. Pain is there for a reason, IMO - Taking away the pain doesn’t take away the problem.
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There are a ton of different opinions out there on this. I do know that some of the nerving procedures do not make the whole foot numb, but only the heel area and they keep feeling in their toe area.
Me personally? I would nerve if a horse isn’t sound without it, no need to live in pain even if it isn’t 100% constant on and off pain isn’t much fun either. As far as riding goes, I think that is individual to what kind of riding and the horses personality. I would imagine a TB would probably like to do something, my QH on the other hand would be fine with grooming, treats and some bareback rides (and I would also not be at risk of getting bucked off doing that like once a month). As far as how much riding and what type that would depend on if one foot vs both feet, if he could feel his toe etc. Would I event one? Probably not even at the low levels. But having pretty much zero experience with this it is hard to say what I would really do. But those are my feelings towards it.
I would do a chemical neurotomy first. Depending on the drug you use, and the horse, you can get 30-45 days out of it, and it would give you a good chance to evaluate how your horse handles it, and how effective it is.
I had a gelding who had substantial navicular changes, along with hock and stifle arthritis on the same side. I did the CN on him, and it was remarkable how much better he felt. Because he did not have to work so hard to take the weight off of his front end, his hind end got better, and he opened up in his shoulders, because he was comfortable landing on his heels. His heels- which had been contracted, and in bar shoes, opened up (we pulled his shoes). As a function of greater blood flow to his heels, the navicular issues also seemed to be far less acute. I maintained him with cn’s until he finally just was a victim to old age (in his 20’s).
IIRC when you “nerve” a horse you take away sensation. That means no more pain, but also means no more sensation.
I’m also dubious on the diagnosis. To save time I’ll just say go to the on line Merck Vet. Manual and read all about it.
Nerving is forever. Before I did it I’d consider a course of pain killers to see what happens; that’s something that can be changed based upon results. If it’s really Navicular Syndrome causing significant lameness then nerving might be the alternative to euthanasia. In any event I’d not ride a nerved horse. I like my horse to be able to feel the ground they walk on for both our sake.
G.
If the choice is having a lame (= in pain) horse or having a pain free horse I think it is a no brainer.
Nerving is not barbaric. That is a wierd word to even use.
Yes, the nerves can grow back, but that is a risk you take. With any procedure there are risks.
In the 1980’s I had a horse heel nerved (I don’t think anyone would recommend a full nerving). My fancy OTTB pregreenie had broken his coffin bone and over a year later (and massive vet bills to try to find out why the fracture was still bothering him) he was still lame. He was heel nerved and lived a long life and pain free life doing flat work.
I would not jump a nerved horse, because too much could happen. But after the nerving he was able to live a wonderful life (he was even turned into a Western pleasure horse in his later years!)
As far as the OP’s question goes, yes, heel nerving would make the horse a “harder” sell. But when the alternative is trying to sell a lame horse (an impossible horse to sell) the question becomes “harder than what?”
I would not recommend him for any challenging jumping career, but there are still a lot of things he can do without jumping immovable objects at a full gallop.
You don’t take away all sensation in the foot, but the whole point is to take away sensation in the back of it.
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10603/neurectomy-for-navicular
According to that, it’s about a year deal, then you often start to have nerves regrow.
Perhaps one of our vets can weigh in here but “nerving” is a term applied to several different procedures, it’s not what it was back when-severing nerves numbing the whole foot leaving a scar. Which is easier on the horse but harder on buyers.
I still wouldn’t put one back in regular hard work even with the less invasive procedures.
[QUOTE=findeight;8039226]
Perhaps one of our vets can weigh in here but “nerving” is a term applied to several different procedures, it’s not what it was back when-severing nerves numbing the whole foot leaving a scar. Which is easier on the horse but harder on buyers.
I still wouldn’t put one back in regular hard work even with the less invasive procedures.[/QUOTE]
I know they can start “low” and go higher up if needed. My horse’s neurectomy just numbed the heel area. He can actually feel his frog and all though (or at least it seems that way because he still doesn’t like it when the farrier messes with his frogs).
Thanks everyone for the feedback! It’s a tough decision that I’m glad I don’t have to make, but I appreciate hearing about everyone else’s experiences.
The vet did do diagnostic blocks back in January before the latest round of Previcox, Osphos, and bursa injections (none of which have helped). I don’t know enough details to say exactly what was blocked but he did trot sound on asphalt while blocked. They have done MRIs etc to rule out soft tissue injuries, as several people suggested. I will make sure they know to ask about the DFFT health if they consider going this route though.
If he can be made sound and comfy, the rider would be happy to do flatwork only with him rather than eventing. Some horses just can’t handle the impact. She’s a good kid and doesn’t want to hurt the horse.
Obviously any future rehoming would be done with full disclosure. Unless something changes drastically they will never get back what they paid for this horse, but that doesn’t mean they can’t find him a decent home. I had a TB with pedal osteitis that I had to part with when going back to school, and I was able to sell him for $1,000 to a wonderful lifelong home. I still get cute pics of him every few months. It’s possible.
I think people might be shocked to know how many horses are out there competing, some at high levels, with partial neurectomies. During a discussion once with a team vet, he intimated that one of the olympic eventing horses had a neurectomy. This is one of those things with sich a stigma that you never hear about the “success” stories because people are ashamed to admit it.
A friend had a young horse that stepped through a wire fence and almost sliced his foot off. It later healed but with neuromas that caused him pain. She did everything she could but nothing worked to treat them. It was totally non degenerative-- they were what they were. Nothing would make them get better or worse. She neved the horse, he became pain-free, and went on to a totally normal competitive/riding career. She had to do the neurectomy to make him pain free, and once he was pain-free-- why not ride? Yes, she took extra care to keep the foot well shod and to make sure it was free from issues-- but once he had the procedure, from a riding POV, he was a totally normal horse. This was fully supported by the local vet and the vet who did the surgery-- and the horse has had years of good use and a normal life.
IF the process is not degenerative and IF the horse is sound/comfortable afterwards and IF the owner can take the extra steps to stay on top of any problems in the nerved foot-- I don’t see any reason NOT to ride a successfully nerved horse. We ride compromised horses (for example, partially blind/missing one eye horses) and we just take steps to accomodate them. Same thing with a nerved horse, especially one that had only partial loss of feeling and only in one hoof. If you wouldn’t ride one, that’s fine-- but there are plenty of good working horses out there who you might have already ridden and never known they were nerved.
