I just started leasing an 8yo QH that has been ridden for the past couple of years in a full cheek slow twist with bit keepers. Before I got on him he was only being ridden once or twice a month. His owner would take him over some fences then out on the trail and that’s about it, no formal training or schooling. His owner said she needed the slow twist to keep his attention out on the trail. Since we are doing only arena work (mostly indoor) I switched him over to a basic dee ring snaffle. Surprise, surprise, he completely ignores it. Couple that with the fact that he is not trained to leg aids makes him a very interesting ride! Thankfully he’s sweet as can be and doesn’t have a mean bone in his body.
We are going back basics and working mostly from the ground but I would like to be able to do some work in the saddle. I have been told that some horses just require a more severe bit but I am VERY reluctant to put him back in the slow twist. They just seem so severe and I’d rather teach him to be me more responsive to the softer bit. Do any of you regularly use a slow twist? Am I making a big deal out nothing and I should just use it since that what he’s used to?
Back in the day riding Hunters/Jumpers I rode many with a slow twist and that was arguably one of the milder bits that was used. But that makes sense really only for the going over fences part when not having control can be very dangerous.
If you are planning on leasing this horse for a long period of time, I would take a different tactic. Do you have access to an arena? If so, then I would try a loose ring or eggbutt jointed snaffle on maybe the medium MM such as a 16MM. I would try to sensitize his mouth to a milder bit on the flat and teach him the proper basics and respect for your aids in a safer environment.
If you need to take a break from the arena and go out on trail after that maybe continue to use the slow twist but if you have good hands it doesn’t have to be a severe bit.
no since slow twist is not legal in the show ring, i would have no use for it
You say , yourself, he is uneducated to the leg aids. Without proper understanding of the leg aids, this horse is also uneducated in the mouth
I would not put a more harsh bit, even a mildly harsher bit in an uneducated mouth
Completely agree with Hoopoe. My gelding had similar issues to your QH. No brakes/bad brakes. We installed better brakes by riding him towards arena walls or corners and applying the halting aids as we approached the wall or corner. He was a failed jumper, so we could also do this in the outdoor ring towards the rails. i wouldn’t try that with an eager jumper!
By “halting aids”, I mean the whole schmear – seat, leg, hand, as he was pretty uneducated to all three. Fix the issue with training, not slow twists (though for safety’s sake, if he’s really a goof on the trail, I’d use what works.)
Good luck and have fun!
If he was responsive in the slow twist then yes, I absolutely would use it. And then I would work both our butts off to TRAIN the response I wanted from him. Once he was understanding and going well, then I would go back to a smooth mouthpiece.
In this sort of situation stronger bits and training aids are just that, aids to make training easier on both horse and rider, not training fixes. The more easily you can get the correct response, and the more often you can get the correct response, the faster the horse will learn. And the bonus is spending less time developing the wrong muscles used in the resistance to the rider.
Back in the day when I did the AQHA thing, a slow twist was considered a relatively mild bit and was used by many. Now, a skinny twisted wire, that’s something else all together.
That said, even back then many trainers had the philosophy of schooling in milder bits and keeping the “heavy artillery” for the show pen.
I’m with RedHorses on this one. Use the slow twist to help you train the correct response. Switch back to a milder (dressage legal) bit when he’s got the idea and then switch back and forth as needed.
Good Luck.
It is time to start over from scratch teaching this horse to listen to your seat, and legs. FYI, bit check does include sliding a finger in the mouth to check for just things such as that.
If you understand how to teach him to answer to the seat and leg, take the time to do so. Most horses do learn very quickly. It"s much harder to retrain the rider than the horse.
[QUOTE=Luckgirl913;8510112]
I just started leasing an 8yo QH that has been ridden for the past couple of years in a full cheek slow twist with bit keepers. Before I got on him he was only being ridden once or twice a month. His owner would take him over some fences then out on the trail and that’s about it, no formal training or schooling. His owner said she needed the slow twist to keep his attention out on the trail. Since we are doing only arena work (mostly indoor) I switched him over to a basic dee ring snaffle. Surprise, surprise, he completely ignores it. Couple that with the fact that he is not trained to leg aids makes him a very interesting ride! Thankfully he’s sweet as can be and doesn’t have a mean bone in his body.
We are going back basics and working mostly from the ground but I would like to be able to do some work in the saddle. I have been told that some horses just require a more severe bit but I am VERY reluctant to put him back in the slow twist. They just seem so severe and I’d rather teach him to be me more responsive to the softer bit. Do any of you regularly use a slow twist? Am I making a big deal out nothing and I should just use it since that what he’s used to?[/QUOTE]
I think you have just described a fundamentally unbroke or at least untrained horse, judging both from what you’ve said about his history and about how he rides now. He doesn’t know what a bit is for, and he doesn’t know leg aids.
You are on the right track going back to basics and retraining him, the way any trainer would teach a young colt what the bit means. Then you can start riding him again. Teaching him voice cues could be helpful.
I would not, personally, feel safe on the trail with a horse that completely ignores a snaffle in the arena (I wouldn’t even feel safe in the arena with this horse!). A horse can blow through any bit in the world, if it wants to; I certainly saw my share of runaway ponies in western curbs, as a teen, and had it happen to myself as well. Listening to the bit is a learned response, just like listening to the leg, and if it isn’t well taught, just ramping up the pain factor of the bit is not going to fix things.
Since you posted this in the dressage forum, I’m answering it from that perspective.
No, in a situation where the horse has never been trained to hear the seat/leg/weight aids, I would not ever use that, or any other bit that has “discomfort” as part of its working mechanism.
I may, as a short term bridge, use a hackamore under the bridle for trail rides…but essentially you are taking a fundamentally untrained animal on trail rides. That’s not exactly unusual, but if you’ve decided to really retrain him, it may be over facing him to expect him to listen to new, unfamiliar aids in that sort of environment.
That being said, since this is not your horse, you are embarking on a lengthy process of retraining some one else’s animal. Are they on board with this? Is it worth the time it’s going to take of you don’t have him long term?
I don’t see the slow twist as cruel or horrible. It sounds like whatever bit you use, you will be working on maners, respect and responsiveness. If you do a good job of this training, with either bit for now; then 6 months from now, he should be more able to go well in a regular snaffle.
You also need to think about your long-term goal: is it important that someday he go well in a bit that is legal for dressage shows? Do you expect him to ever do work at 2nd/3rd level and above where he has to be sensitive to a nuanced connection with the hand. If the answer to both of theses questions is “no,” then I wouldn’t have a problem with just staying in the slow twist. It works, and in reasonable hands, it isn’t cruel.
If you do need to get him into a regular snaffle someday, then you need to think about your strategy for making the transition: You could stick with the slow twist for now if you feel you need if for some basic respect and safety. Transitioning should be easier after he has a few months of consistent training under his belt. If you elect to do this,make sure that you are training him to be lighter to the aids and that you don’t just become dependent on the heavier bit. On the other hand, you might decide to switch to a lighter bit now, which will make the initial training more difficult, but make the transition easier down the road. You might also look into something like a mylar “comfort snaffle.” I find this has a little more power than a regular snaffle, but is still legal for the dressage ring.
I’m not going to do this much training on someone elses’ horse AND pay for it. sorry. BTDT.
Just how much influence are the owners giving you over the horse? will they maintain the training? nothing worse than riding two days in a row, getting somewhere, and have someone else ride for a day and backslide.
If the owner wants him in a slow twist, I would keep him in one UNLESS you and the owner are of the same mind and commitment to dressage. Horses really need consistency. I have found they get really frustrated with dressage in this case.
It might be a great learning opportunity for you to work with a green horse, if you don’t have to fight the owner or other trainers for control over the progression. Make sure owner is ok with your tack changes, many are not (don’t blame them, their horse, they get to ride in a slow twist and mosey down the trail if they want- don’t have to have a dressage foundation)
I was so sick of this scenario I went and bought my own horse.
Thanks so much to you all for the replies. Here is an update…
I decided not to go back to the slow twist. Lower level shows are definitely a goal of mine and I decided to make a clean break with the old bit. We have been working exclusively from the ground working on yielding to pressure as well as Verbal cues. It is slow going but we are definitely making progress. I have almost no experience training a horse myself and have been relying on tips from other borders at our barn as well as a few books and a lot of YouTube videos. My trainer has been in Florida the past few weeks but is returning this weekend- thank goodness! It’s been fun to play around on my own but I am ready for some professional guidance.
The reason I am putting the work into a lease is because he could potentially become mine permanently in the not-too-distant future. His current owner does almost nothing with him (has only been to see him once since November) and has been asked to leave the barn by the owner (my trainer) due to consistently late board payments. My trainer approached me about him because she knows he has always been one of my favorites. He’s as sweet as can be, a lovely mover, And is blessed with an adorable personality. Due to his current lack of training we are probably looking at a “giveaway” situation - current owner can’t afford his continued board and his value is limited. It would be probably be best for her financially if she just gave him to me.
My agreeing to lease him was really to help both my trainer and his current owner out financially and allow me to spend time with him to determine if I want to take him on as my horse.
