I have officially heard it all now. WTF? Maybe you can get a job as a profiler since you seem to have horse racing all figured out.
Cowboy hat or asshat? Yeah I know I’m picking the cowboy hat, but I know someone I would “profile” as the asshat one. LOL For what it’s worth, I don’t wear cowboy hats, but I never knew what you wore could equate with what kind of horseperson you were. Has anyone ever seen Jonathan Sheppard? He’s a pretty good horseman, but sometimes his dress style isn’t! LOL
It really does take all kinds of crazy to make the world go 'round, I guess.
I came to read this thread thinking it might be educational, but it sure was entertaining. Sort of.
Sheila
You’re right Sheila, what you wear has nothing to do with it. In this day and age it surprised me someone would profile like that. That is the beauty of the horse world…people come from all walks of life and can be successful.
These threads are usually educational which is why I felt the need to step in so people new to the sport wouldn’t be misinformed. I just watched one of the most amazing races at Santa Anita where my favorite horse Will Take Charge was led over with a nylon bridle by a guy wearing a cowboy hat, ha ha ha! I was cracking up.
Personally, I am so glad people are talking about this issue. I have an off-track standardbred from a sale in Maine, (guess where she was going,) who came to me so juiced up she actually had rages for a few weeks. At three years old. Something needs to be done about this, and I think the racing industry, tbs and stbs, is a fantastic place to start. Mind you, there are probably TONS of performance horse trainers in a bunch of disciplines who dope their horses, but racing is the most regulatable and a great first step. Great post guys!
Let’s try again. The question was:
[QUOTE=Profidia;7467240]
Might you have anything to say in defense of the out of control drug use in the racing industry?[/QUOTE]
Then sjdressage says:
[QUOTE=sjdressage;7467283]I think I’ve heard of this guy in thoroughbred circles…
I thought in thoroughbred circles “one doesn’t dress this way”.[/QUOTE]
Is this an ADD thing or something? If you’d like to discuss the sociology of the whole deal make another freaking thread!
Hey what can I say? Who needs an FBI when there’s me?:winkgrin:
By the way. I also don’t like men and boys wearing earrings, kids playing baseball with bats made of any material other than wood, the State of Wisconsin and onions.
Any more off topic things you ladies would like to talk about?
[QUOTE=UsualDreamFarm;7468002]
Personally, I am so glad people are talking about this issue. I have an off-track standardbred from a sale in Maine, (guess where she was going,) who came to me so juiced up she actually had rages for a few weeks. At three years old. Something needs to be done about this, and I think the racing industry, tbs and stbs, is a fantastic place to start. Mind you, there are probably TONS of performance horse trainers in a bunch of disciplines who dope their horses, but racing is the most regulatable and a great first step. Great post guys![/QUOTE]
You’re absolutely right. It’s a national disgrace and am sorry that happened to you. I’d recommend you get on the reform website and register for their e-mail list. There’s a lot of stuff going on that you can help with and make a big difference.
Also congratulations on your horse. If given a chance ex-racehorses make great riding and show horses. Most of us deeply appreciate folks like you that provide homes and second careers for them.
I’d also encourage you to have a look at this article too:
http://tuesdayshorse.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/deadly-to-horses-the-baffert-effect-part-1/
I doubt you will find a single person in the racing industry that doesn’t think that changes need to be made for the sake of the horses and the people who care for them. To think you can figure out the good guys from the bad guys by the clothes they wear or the tack they use is ludicrous however and doesn’t do anybody any good. We need to get rid of a few bad apples, get uniform medication rules and carry on regardless of what the people involved are wearing. You are not making your point, you are losing whatever credibility you may have had if you ever had any with your ridiculous insinuations. I am willing to bet I wouldn’t know who you are if you told me so don’t count on me to be surprised.
I agree Laurie. You have gone out there and trained yourself, as have I. Putting yourself out there publicly takes a lot of nerve and it changes you. It is humbling and a huge learning experience even when you start out as a good horseman. It is hard for me to hear people knocking others from behind their computers and spreading misconceptions.
As far as the medication debate goes, I think things are more strict than ever. Labs can detect thousands of drugs from the same sample down to minute amounts. Uniform rules are going into effect in many jurisdictions, withdrawal times are getting pushed back for meds that May effect the welfare of the horse. New claiming rules are going into effect to deter dumping of unsound horses, etc. etc. Commissions ESPECIALLY Penn are doing barn searches. I happen to know a couple of days ago a new trainer there was searched on his way to running his first horse. They practically strip searched him and didn’t find anything. So, to everyone thinking things are worse and rampant, think again.
I think getting more and more strict on non performance enhancing amounts of common meds is overkill. Nobody does this on purpose and it is really expensive when this happens. The next step is out of competition testing. Everyone who is really in the game knows that the guys you suspect are not the ones getting bad tests. I am all for out of competition testing but only if things are clear with the horseman, chain of custody is taken seriously and the labs are foolproof. I don’t think we are there now.
The other gray area is Homeopathic meds. As medications are more and more restrictive ( bleeding meds) horseman try to help other ways. Horseman have used Chinese roots for years. A guy recently used a homeopathic med for a bleeder that had ginsing and got a positive due to contamination at the compounding lab. This stuff has to be worked out (homeopathic and proven contamination. Not everything can continue down this "anti horseman " path or there won’t be any. As it is now we can’t even give electrolytes on race day in August.
Another real good one from a couple of years ago on Paulick’s
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/tracy-farmer-horse-racing-s-medication-choices/
Excellent and spot on
But wait there’s more, can any of you all defend this?
http://www.horsefund.org/the-chemical-horse-part-7.php
Well on the first article, LASIx is not even on my radar as a problem in the sport. It is overused but I don’t believe it is the evil these guys make it out to be. The fact that this guy is blaming it for horses dropping out of derby contention is silly. Those horses have only run a handful of times, months apart. His other statement that bute was designed to counteract the inflammatory effects of LASIx is laughable. Many horses will be out of a job without LASIx.
The article on class 4’s is partially correct but it is being addressed. Overuse of joint injections specifically depo is a problem. When horses go from barn to barn with no history, joints can be reinjected often. I have claimed a horse that crashed similar to the article. Weight loss, founder, etc. I believe his knee was injected by each of the trainers who had him that year. I believe Ny tried to address this by demanding joint injection records transfer with a claimed horse but I could be wrong.
The change of bute from 5 mcg to 2 was huge. It was a significant difference. At 2 you don’t notice a difference in your horse. It is my understanding that the thresholds now are designed to allow for incidental use during training but not as medication to pre race with. Many things are pushed back and stacking is not allowed. Anyone still using allowable medications at the last minute before allowable withdrawal times is wasting their money. When was the last time you took a medication and still felt its effects 24-48 hours later. That is the reality.
I firmly believe lasix is being discussed solely because it’s use is printed in the program. People are too stupid to understand that is the least of their worries because there it is in black and white. If you stop putting lasix in the program or conversely, started putting every drug that was in the horse at or below threshold levels then the discussion would go away.
I happen to know a couple of days ago a new trainer there was searched on his way to running his first horse. They practically strip searched him and didn’t find anything. So, to everyone thinking things are worse and rampant, think again.
So you know of one newbie who got checked and was clean (at least no drugs were found on his person). Therefore, drug use is not rampant. A logical fallacy if I’ve ever heard one.
I think getting more and more strict on non performance enhancing amounts of common meds is overkill. Nobody does this on purpose and it is really expensive when this happens.
You mean like Bob Baffert using Thyro-L on his horses? All of his young TB’s need Thyro-L? Uh huh… And who are the vets prescribing all of these drugs? Don’t state vet boards have any ethics policies?
The other gray area is Homeopathic meds. As medications are more and more restrictive ( bleeding meds) horseman try to help other ways. Horseman have used Chinese roots for years.
You have homeopathic and herbal medicine confused. A homeopathic “drug” would never test even by the most sophisticated lab because it’s nothing more than water and wishful thinking. Herbals are a completely different story and can be just as toxic as manufactured drugs, sometimes even more so because nobody’s checking the strength of the herb’s active ingredient (could be strong, could be weak). Please bone up on what homeopathy is so you don’t sound so ignorant.
The only way to solve this dilemma is to implement a zero drug policy* throughout the country, including lasix. The rest of the civilized world of racing doesn’t allow it so I don’t buy that it’s a must have in the US. If a particular horse is a known bleeder, don’t race it and certainly don’t breed it. If a horse is injured or sore, haul it off the track, treat it with whatever drugs are necessary and most of all allow it time off to heal. If that’s not “in the budget”, euthanize it.
*With one exception: preventative use of omeprazole since the stress, high grain feeding practices and 23 hours/day stalling of TBs on the track result in 90+% of them having gastric ulcers in every large study conducted.
Woooow rcloisonne! Way to put words in my mouth and call names in an attempt to start a fight. You my dear are the one that sounds ignorant.
First of all, I don’t see anywhere that I condoned Bob Baffert giving all of his horses thyroid l. That isn’t even on the list of 24 therapeutics and his situation has opened up a huge can of worms in veterinary ethics that I never touched on.so, why are you putting that on me as something I agree with. Dumb.
Secondly, nowhere did I say that one guy getting searched and coming up clean indicates that drug use isn’t rampant. It indicates that the industry takes it seriously and is taking action. Penn takes a lot of heat but they are patrolling and searching. Their searches have led to arrests. My point, which you were to much in a hurry to attack to comprehend, is that things are being cleaned up.
You clearly have no experience in a racing barn. Zero drug policy? Ok, I won’t treat my horse if they have mucous. I’ll let his epm progress till he can’t get up. I won’t treat for bleeding and let infection scar up his lungs. If he needs stitches I’ll have it done without tranq or local anesthetic so people like you will be satisfied. This is why there are threshold levels set for meds that may test for weeks after administration. There are even nerve blocking agents on the list as this is how vets diagnose lameness. So, if the exam comes up with something minor in his foot that takes a week to get right do I have to send him to the farm because YOU say zero drugs? Your Christian scientist approach would land you in trouble with the ASPCA.
If you were truly involved in any meaningful way in racing you would have understood my point that a lot is being done to restrict these therapeutics but the guys that are really enhancing performance can not be caught without out of competition testing. Just like they caught lance Armstrong and you perfect trainers in Europe that keep using nitrotain.
Homeopathic remedies do contain herbs, not just water so you are the one tat needs to bone up.
This thread seems to be a mud slinging match. Most unfortunate.
There isn’t a horse sport in the world that doesn’t have abuse of horses involved in some way. Read the thread about AQHA and it makes me sick to think about horses being abused and the “players” going after the stewards. The TWH industry has been a scourge for decades.
Because the tb industry is so large and so visible I hope they can make headway against all bad drug use and maybe, just maybe the other horse sports can be brought into line too. (and don’t get me started on the hunter scene, gah)
Yes Gestalt, it is unfortunate. There are a handful of people out there that are so he’ll bent on attacking things that they ignore the facts. They want to think all trainers only care about money and we all drug our horses and will twist things to pursue this agenda.
My point was that there are many very smart people out there that have modified the rules to protect horses, testing can pick up amounts the size of a piece of sand in a football field, investigators are doing their jobs and horse racing has changed. Is it perfect? No. A handful of people still cheat as post race testing doesn’t catch them.
Many of the people in charge are horseman and they understand that cramming a zero medication plan into place is not in the best interest of the horse. Of the 24 allowable therapeutic meds (by allowable I don’t mean up to the race, some have cutoffs of several weeks) there are 4 used for sedation, 3 for joints, 1 for bleeding prevention, 1 for post bleeding treatment, 2 for tying up, 1 for hives, 1 topical anti-inflammatory, 1 leg paint additive, 4 nsaid’s, 1 for mucous clearance, 2 for nerve blocking/diagnostics, 1 for ulcers, 1 for heaves, and 1 antibiotic. Only one NSAID is allowed. So, you can see they are trying to account for common issues. They are not meant as a pre race treatment with the exception of LASIX. All others have withdrawal times that would make them non performance enhancing at race time.
As a trainer, I have no financial incentive to use LASIX other than it protects the long term health of my horses lungs. Minor bleeding has a cumulative negative effect on my horses lungs. Very few horses bleed out their lungs but MOST horses bleed to some degree. They do it even when stabled in fresh air, brought along slowly, started late, etc. etc. it is not just a thoroughbred thing that can so easily be "bred " out. Just look at any barrel racing forum and you’ll see horses bleed regardless of breed. Getting rid of LASIX would cause the early retirement of many horses. What will become of them? Every trainer has the option of running without LASIX. No one makes you do it. So anyone that is so inclined should take out a trainers license and show us how it’s done. Many horses perform great without it, even Royal Delta. It should remain an option.
I’m really not into getting into a LASIX debate. It is a non issue to me. I just want people to see there is another side to it that makes the horse a priority.
[QUOTE=sjdressage;7469809]
Homeopathic remedies do contain herbs, not just water so you are the one tat needs to bone up.[/QUOTE]
Couldn’t even be bothered to google it? No herbs in homeopathic remedies. See into below. Plenty more where that came from if wiki doesn’t float your boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
No answer for the lasix argument either? (i.e., why no other country allows it but most race trackers here are adamant it’s needed) I just want to know why.
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;7470015]
Couldn’t even be bothered to google it? No herbs in homeopathic remedies. See into below. Plenty more where that came from if wiki doesn’t float your boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
No answer for the lasix argument either? (i.e., why no other country allows it but most race trackers here are adamant it’s needed) I just want to know why.[/QUOTE]
What about Arnica? It’s an herb, see below to reference it’s popularity as a homeopathic remedy ingredient. It’s legality in horse sports is debatable.
http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/what-is-arnica.html
http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/arnica.htm
Please read above for my reasoning behind LASIX if you missed it
Couldn’t help but notice while checking virtual stable this morning that equibase has a new advertiser:
http://equinepharmaceutical.com/
Just un-freaking-believable:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Profidia;7492784]
Couldn’t help but notice while checking virtual stable this morning that equibase has a new advertiser:
http://equinepharmaceutical.com/
Just un-freaking-believable:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
People have been doing this since the beginning of TIME. I’m not sure why you are shocked. It’s not like they’re advertising snake venom and mepivacaine over the counter. I don’t think horses are snapping their legs because they’re running on white peony and peach kernels.
[QUOTE=sjdressage;7470160]
What about Arnica? It’s an herb, see below to reference it’s popularity as a homeopathic remedy ingredient. It’s legality in horse sports is debatable.
http://www.nutritional-supplements-health-guide.com/what-is-arnica.html
http://altmedicine.about.com/od/herbsupplementguide/a/arnica.htm
Please read above for my reasoning behind LASIX if you missed it[/QUOTE]
Arnica is an herb. Anything containing arnica in a detectable amount is an herbal medication/topical.
If a homeopathic remedy contains it, it’s probably so watered down as to be undetectable (that’s why homeopathy is such a scam). In your first link, they mention “micro doses” - homeopathy “works” by diluting the offending agent over and over to some ridiculously dilute level. If you were to test that product, you probably wouldn’t find any actual arnica in it. This is why homeopathy is such a ridiculous scam.
Of course people tend to conflate herbal with homeopathy, and some producers just term it all homeopathy when some of it is not. But classicly speaking, homeopathy by definition involves highly, highly diluted “medications” that if you were to test them, you wouldn’t find any of the “active ingredient” in.
carry on…
