[QUOTE=omare;8162083]
I feel like I have just gone into a time warp back 50 years with this issue.[/QUOTE]
I am not judging anyone for making the decisions that they make. I was just trying to provide information related to biological changes. Every body is different.
ok guys, letâs not get too derailed on personal issues.
This has NOTHING to do with being a woman vs man. Nothing to do with parenting choices. It has to do with the fact that a womans body after child birth DOES need to heal. It is a fact that you are not as strong. This isnât a thread to go after one rider, however two falls back to back and one resulting in very serious injury and near missing death is cause for concern. Are we trying to find how to make the sport safer or are we trying to save feelings. If there are other good examples of riders and falls etc letâs hear them.
We need to be able to scrutinize ULRs respectfully without those who admire and love them getting bent out of shape about it. We donât have to agree but we should be able to discuss.
[QUOTE=kmartin85;8156310]
I think it would also be interesting to see the statistics of how many upper level horses are euthanized due to accidents that happen when not under saddle. It seems we hear of those almost just as often. Whether itâs the horse who casts himself in the stall, or the horse that took a bad step in the pasture. The possibility of a life threatening injury happening is not put away with the tack. Itâs a possibility that exists all the time with horses.[/QUOTE]
There simply is not enough information to continue to vilify eventing officials for competition deaths. And people repeating the "I have no idea what to do but SOMEONE has to do SOMETHING refrain, is just pointless hanky twisting.
And quite frankly, so long as things keep changing, it will be impossible to gather enough information to make any definitive conclusions. If everything is changed all the time, then there is no way in heck that anyone can know what is causing what, what needs to be done to alter outcomes, etc.
I do not know any of these people. I guess I have been around too many racetrackers that just about gave birth in the stall and were galloping horses the next day just about. And yes galloping horses requires core strength.
So what are you proposing about rider fitness?
How many have you known that when the cast comes off they are back competing? Are they fit? Hmmm maybe not but I suspect the difference between UL people that break legs and compete at the highest levels immediately and do not fall is the quality of the team behind them and the quality of the horse (edited to add âand experience of the horse at that levelâ) and their own experience level (edited to add âand Luckâ) and not their âfitnessâ at that moment.
I am uncomfortable with questioning JPâs decision to return to competing soon after pregnancy/birth. People recover from various body traumas at vastly different rates, as a function of many factors, including but not limited to base fitness level, extent of the trauma, physical âtherapyâ or in her case rebuilding strength, and so on. Who knows what all of these factors might be in her case. She certainly has looked to be riding as well as ever. It seems pointless to continue to question her judgment and imply that her fitness level was a factor in the accident.
Heck, one could question many riders regarding their physical readiness and the impact that has on their riding, whether it be a physical injury, base fitness level, anatomical limitations and what not.
We are not privvy to how quickly JP recovered from giving birth and how well she had rebuilt her strenth prior to competing. So conjecture about her weaknesses just seem pointless.
It happens in the hunters as well⊠tragic⊠
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-dies-devon-horse-show
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8162380]
I am uncomfortable with questioning JPâs decision to return to competing soon after pregnancy/birth. People recover from various body traumas at vastly different rates, as a function of many factors, including but not limited to base fitness level, extent of the trauma, physical âtherapyâ or in her case rebuilding strength, and so on. Who knows what all of these factors might be in her case. She certainly has looked to be riding as well as ever. It seems pointless to continue to question her judgment and imply that her fitness level was a factor in the accident.
Heck, one could question many riders regarding their physical readiness and the impact that has on their riding, whether it be a physical injury, base fitness level, anatomical limitations and what not.
We are not privvy to how quickly JP recovered from giving birth and how well she had rebuilt her strenth prior to competing. So conjecture about her weaknesses just seem pointless.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, WD.
I find the whole discussion inappropriate and invasive and some of the comments offensive.
No one here knows anything someone elseâs most personal details, and it is all pointless conjecture.
Not to mention, people keep referring to pregnancy and childbirth as âtraumaâ - while it certainly does put strain of a womanâs body - it is NOT a car accident, it is not an injury, it is what a womanâs body is designed to do.
Every woman and each womanâs body handles it differently.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8162383]
It happens in the hunters as well⊠tragicâŠ
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-dies-devon-horse-show[/QUOTE]
so sad.
I guess Lance Armstrong would have tried to get pregnant if he had known --he would have not needed to dope with increased red blood cellsâhe would have had the post-peggers increased red blood cell bounce.
Keep in mind 4 years ago JP gave birth to Jacob and rode at Jersey Fresh 3 weeks after and won. Itâs not her first child so I think she knows her body. Who are we to judge? Everyone heals differently at different paces. Some who choose not to ride so soon after maybe have that choice if they choose to not make eventing their career. There are multiple riders who have broken limbs multiple times and continue to ride without scrutiny. Is it because she is a women or is it because she had 2 falls so close to each other. Did it really have anything to do with her pregnancy. We will never know because we are not in her head.
I think JP is a wonderful person and lovely rider so I choose not to judge as I am not a 4* eventer to be able to judge.
As for safety eventing is in the right direction and they continue to improve. I just think we are way more aware thanks to social media.
Honestly, I am astounded at how quickly I have seen upper level eventers return to competing after breaking bones as well. As you say, I am not an upper level eventer. All I can say is that I could never return to play that fast from a broken leg, collarbone, or ankle.
[QUOTE=LadyB;8162617]
Keep in mind 4 years ago JP gave birth to Jacob and rode at Jersey Fresh 3 weeks after and won. Itâs not her first child so I think she knows her body. Who are we to judge? Everyone heals differently at different paces. Some who choose not to ride so soon after maybe have that choice if they choose to not make eventing their career. There are multiple riders who have broken limbs multiple times and continue to ride without scrutiny. Is it because she is a women or is it because she had 2 falls so close to each other. Did it really have anything to do with her pregnancy. We will never know because we are not in her head.
I think JP is a wonderful person and lovely rider so I choose not to judge as I am not a 4* eventer to be able to judge.
As for safety eventing is in the right direction and they continue to improve. I just think we are way more aware thanks to social media.[/QUOTE]
When any rider has two serious falls that close together, itâs a cause for concern. Even if rider isnât the self-reflective type, everyone around them should be asking questions and seeking answers.
In this case, a rushed return from pregnancy could be a factor, just the same way that a rushed return from any physical or cognitive change could.
A few years ago, Phillip Dutton had two rotational falls within a relatively short period of time, and concerns were expressed over that as well. But thatâs what happens when people care. No one wants to see the third strike.
Itâs funny to me that some of the most judgemental posts on here are those that claim that they âdonât judgeâ even though all the while theyâre passing judgement on others that they see as judging. Hilarious, but human.
Having given birth 3 times, I can vouch that your body takes longer to come back with each pregnancy. As well, age becomes a factor, an easy recovery 4 years ago can be a more difficult for a mother that is 4 years older.
I really hope JP takes a step back, she has nothing to prove in terms of getting to the pan ams, she is already qualified, no?
I do not believe these observations are invasive or offensive, people here are genuinly concerned and the women who have experienced childbirth first hand know all about the physical changes. She is not super woman, yes we are all different but there are certain facts to child birth.
I agree that two falls within a short time span are cause for concern. I donât agree that the rampant speculation reflects concern. There seems to be a lot of what if questions that will never be answered. We will never know if the return to riding in that particular timeline was a factor.(Ironically, there was a thread earlier where there were some comments questioning Clayton riding JPâs horses while she was off - and now she is back too soon? )
Letâs try a what if question of a different sort. What if - the country team coaches took more of an ecological approach? That being said, I donât know if they do or not. Should all team members be expected to provide evidence of their personal fitness and that of their horses? Should team coaches be expecting to know what kind of programs named horses and riders are using?
At least that way, team members and coaches would know that they are being held to a particular standard of fitness and fitness could hopefully become less of a speculation as an issue in falls.
I did not find any evidence of falls with ALR.
https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=3157BAF31D353C1FD967533A85135D32
Part of the reason that some of the UL riders return to competition earlier than us because they have access to Olympic doctors and surgeons.
So, in answer to the what are we doing question? Well, maybe the question would be better phrased as what can we do? What are some other reasons that could be causing falls/deaths other than fitness issues?
[QUOTE=seriously?;8162663]
What if - the country team coaches took more of an ecological approach? [/QUOTE]
What is an âecological approachâ to eventing? Iâm having visions of recycling, leave-no-trace and Woodsy Owl. Maybe you meant to use a different term?
I didnât know medicine was an Olympic sport. While elite athletes might get recommendations from their NSFs to go to certain physicians, those physicians are certified by the same boards as others in their fields. If you want to visit one, call their office and make an appointment. Itâs not like theyâll turn you down because you havenât competed above Novice.
^ agreed, and to add to that point, even if the doctor was one who specialized in olympic athletes, They would still be required to offer thebest possible medical advice, not what they felt like dishing out.
[QUOTE=JER;8162724]
I didnât know medicine was an Olympic sport. While elite athletes might get recommendations from their NSFs to go to certain physicians, those physicians are certified by the same boards as others in their fields. If you want to visit one, call their office and make an appointment. Itâs not like theyâll turn you down because you havenât competed above Novice.[/QUOTE]
One of our local medical systems actually uses in the ad for their Sports Medicine Complex the fact that our NHL team players get treated there. My mom has seen one of the doctors, in fact, and I assure you she is quite far from being an elite athlete - she got very good care which was appropriate for her needs, from someone who stays well up to date on the latest treatment options and so on, which is just as important when youâre an older person with compensatory arthritis from a badly broken leg as it is when youâre a star hockey player. (Possibly more, actually, as she isnât an easy surgical candidate in the same way a healthy younger adult would be, so you need to have MORE ideas on what to try before surgical intervention, not less.)
Plus, doctors arenât magic and they arenât perfect - they canât make you heal any faster than your body is going to heal with correct treatment, but they arenât immune to pressure from their patients, either. If you completely go against what theyâve said to do, they might âfireâ you as a patient (because it looks bad for them if someone theyâre treating goes and ends up completely trashing a joint, even if they say they told the person not to, PR is like that) but for many things theyâre just going to recommend or strongly recommend - and they canât force you to have that treatment, so if you say you want something else, unless, like I said, theyâre prepared to actually fire you, theyâre more than likely willing to work on some kind of compromise that they feel isnât medically completely ridiculous but that takes into account the fact that youâre a stubborn athlete and donât want to sit on the sidelines any longer than you ABSOLUTELY MUST.
What they mean is they have quicker access to those elite doctors. They will be put ahead of the line to be mended together quicker. This way our athletes are able to be back in the saddle much quicker. How else did Jessica ride at the Olympics with a broken collar bone. They find the best way to put them back in the game. Yes everyone gets pins for their collar bones it was the quickness of the surgery that not everyone gets.
I would hope our althetes get the best care!
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8162383]
It happens in the hunters as well⊠tragicâŠ
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-dies-devon-horse-show[/QUOTE]
Yeah, once every umpteen years. This was not a repeat, not rotational and not really comparable to whatâs being discussed here. Sh*t can and does happen anywhere, anytime. Nobody argues that.
LadyB has it right. Not only do they have access to good care - their access is significantly quicker than ours might be. Those docs also specialize in sports medicine.
Also makes some interesting reading: they do have to qualify.
https://www.themedicalbag.com/article/doctors-must-qualify-to-make-the-olympic-medical-team
Elite athletes deal with pain differently:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/how-injured-olympic-athletes-heal-quickly-enough-to-perform-1.2538061
As far as the term âecologicalâ, I meant to say that and it is a genuine question. Which topics, other than just coaching riding are team coaches addressing? Are riders accountable to the team for fitness of themselves and their mounts? What about issues like vet, chiro, post xc/gallop care, sports psychology, and business topics like fundraising? I brought up fitness as a general term as that has been part of the previous discussion. Would it make a difference if riders and coaches were accountable for fitness levels?
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