WTF Are We Doing?

[JER]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8162857]
How else did Jessica ride at the Olympics with a broken collar bone. They find the best way to put them back in the game. Yes everyone gets pins for their collar bones it was the quickness of the surgery that not everyone gets. [/QUOTE]

I would hope that a physician finds the best way to put everyone’s collarbones back together. Otherwise, they should face hefty lawsuits and loss of licensure.

Guess who else competed with a broken collarbone? Me! You know how I did it? I just got on my horse and rode. It was at the LLs, on a horse I knew well, and I had to go to the HT because I had other horses competing.

At the 1996 Olympics, an Australian rider fell, broke her collarbone, got back on and finished – because Australia was very determined to finish a team. She delayed treatment in case she had to showjump the next day. She didn’t – by then they’d already won.

[vineyridge]

If the issue is rider responsibility, then the new rules about reverse qualification should apply to the rider and not to the horse and rider pair. If a rider is faced with being pushed away from a level that might affect participation in Games or high profile events, perhaps the rider would be forced (if you will) to be more cautious and think harder about decisions like coming back to the field of play after something like pregnancy or illness. I would think that a rider returning from an INJURY would take things easy the first few times out out of fear or reinjury. But pregnancy is normal, there might be a “been there done that” attitude, and there wouldn’t be the same fear of “reinjury.”

The way the rule applies only to the horse/rider combination makes it appear that TPTBs are focusing on the horse’s contribution to falls, not the rider’s.

[IFG]

Anyone who advocates for their medical care should have rapid access to the appropriate care. The difference may not be the access to MDs so much as the access to appropriate advocates.

I do medical research for a living, so I serve as my own advocate. I can tell you that when I recently fractured my tibia, it was repaired as soon as it was medically wise to do so. They needed to wait a few days for the swelling to go down (to avoid infection), and then the put my leg back together. I was fortunate to have a really experienced trauma surgeon. That said, no way would I consider riding yet. This happened in January, and I am still working on walking without crutches.

[QUOTE=seriously?;8162876]
LadyB has it right. Not only do they have access to good care - their access is significantly quicker than ours might be. Those docs also specialize in sports medicine.

Also makes some interesting reading: they do have to qualify.
https://www.themedicalbag.com/article/doctors-must-qualify-to-make-the-olympic-medical-team

Elite athletes deal with pain differently:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/how-injured-olympic-athletes-heal-quickly-enough-to-perform-1.2538061

As far as the term ‘ecological’, I meant to say that and it is a genuine question. Which topics, other than just coaching riding are team coaches addressing? Are riders accountable to the team for fitness of themselves and their mounts? What about issues like vet, chiro, post xc/gallop care, sports psychology, and business topics like fundraising? I brought up fitness as a general term as that has been part of the previous discussion. Would it make a difference if riders and coaches were accountable for fitness levels?[/QUOTE]

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=JER;8162895]
I would hope that a physician finds the best way to put everyone’s collarbones back together. Otherwise, they should face hefty lawsuits and loss of licensure.[/QUOTE]

It’s a more complex issue than that. There generally is not one “best” way to go about treating an injury, just two or more alternatives, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Consider, for example, broken ribs. One treatment option is pinning/plating, which can reduce pain and recovery time significantly. But, when you consider the costs/benefits of the surgical approach, the average person may not be able to afford, or be judged by their insurance company to not “need,” this treatment. When I was offered this option a few years ago after breaking several ribs, I chose the more conventional treatment because there truly wasn’t a medical need for, and I was comfortable managing my recovery without, the more invasive treatment. But, I suspect that a top level athlete would be more inclined to pursue a more aggressive line of treatment.

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8162857]
What they mean is they have quicker access to those elite doctors. They will be put ahead of the line to be mended together quicker. This way our athletes are able to be back in the saddle much quicker. How else did Jessica ride at the Olympics with a broken collar bone. They find the best way to put them back in the game. Yes everyone gets pins for their collar bones it was the quickness of the surgery that not everyone gets.

I would hope our althetes get the best care![/QUOTE]

I hope everyone gets the best care. I find this interesting, because I can assure you, I have access to the best Dr.s in the world where I live - You make a phone call & get in right away. It’s very easy…but the best Dr’s do put you back together in a way that suits your lifestyle; which they will tell you may not be the best way to put you back together Knowing this - of course I question an athletes ability to come back & direct a horse around a serious course. How many riders can afford not to be 110% while riding around the ULs?

[Foxtrot_s]

I had three kids, too, and can attest that a rider does not come back the same after each kid, and adding a few years makes it even harder… .But don’t forget an elite athlete is a different animal. There is competetiveness, grit, and stubbornness added to the mix. There are sponsors, there is team qualification, goals, horse owners, and an ‘I can do it’ attitude that lesser mortals do not have.

It is not unusual for a rider to compete with a broken collar bone, esp. in show jumping it happens a lot. Don’t know how, they are bloody painful, as are ribs, but one CAN do it.

Milos Roanic has just withdrawn from the French Open because of surgery on his foot but he plans to be back for Wimbledon and tennis is hard on feet and ankles.

[4Martini]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8163097]
How many riders can afford not to be 110% while riding around the ULs?[/QUOTE]

Darn, the sport is now mathematically impossible.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8162897]

The way the rule applies only to the horse/rider combination makes it appear that TPTBs are focusing on the horse’s contribution to falls, not the rider’s.[/QUOTE]

The only problem with applying the rule to riders without considering the horse is that it discriminates against those riders who compete a larger number of horses, and are therefore more likely to have falls.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8156424]
The fact is you are not (at all) likely to sustain serious injury in this sport unless you are an upper level rider on an upper level course. [/QUOTE]

Disclaimer: I’ve only read the 1st 3 pages, so this has perhaps already been discussed, I apologize, but the pedant/safety nazi in me had to point this out as 100% NOT TRUE & dangerously misleading.

I’ve helped run training/novice level events where riders have fallen, suffered serious fractures & had to sit in cold water waiting for the ambulance so as not to destabilize any possible spinal injuries.

I believe on the right hand side of this page, there is a box of “popular articles,” one of which covers the death of a horse on a hunter course this week at Devon where he caught his feet on the back rail & fell & broke his neck.

A good friend was riding her horse at FREE WALK, the horse spooked at something random, she fell at shattered her ankle, requiring two surgeries. Several others have received very serious concussions during dressage warmups and low level jump falls.

I could continue for a quite a while, but point made. Let us never forget that horses are horses – they didn’t read a book about “no one gets hurt as long as the jumps are below X height.” If we miss the forest for the trees, that just ends up with more people getting hurt through nurturing a false sense of security.

I am 100% supportive of always striving to improve safety using LOGIC & DATA in a thoughtful manner.

Carry on…

[JER]

[QUOTE=LadyB;8162857]
What they mean is they have quicker access to those elite doctors. They will be put ahead of the line to be mended together quicker. This way our athletes are able to be back in the saddle much quicker. How else did Jessica ride at the Olympics with a broken collar bone. They find the best way to put them back in the game. Yes everyone gets pins for their collar bones it was the quickness of the surgery that not everyone gets. [/QUOTE]

Quickness? If a clavicle fracture requires surgery, it’s done shortly after injury, with some exceptions, like if the fracture is still open after several months. Otherwise, if skin is broken or there is serious displacement or multiple segments, you get the surgery pronto. It’s not like non-elite athletes go home and hang out with an unsupported shoulder for weeks or months.

[QUOTE=seriously?;8162876]
As far as the term ‘ecological’, I meant to say that and it is a genuine question. [/QUOTE]

To me, it seems like the more common term for what you’re describing is ‘holistic’. That would make sense.

I don’t know where people get these Greater Than Us ideas about elite athletes. If we take Canada as an example, there’s not a whole lot of funding for most sports. For many (basically, anything that isn’t embraced by the odious Own The Podium program), there’s none. You can read up on that here. Athletes in these sport are so ‘elite’ that they’re begging and scrounging and freelancing and running gofundme-type campaigns to afford their competitions. For access to physio and various specialists, there’s a lot of networking that goes on – you know someone who knows someone who recommends this person and they might see you for a reduced rate.

Hockey, a sport which fewer and fewer Canadians can afford to play, still gets plenty of money.

The situation is similar in the US, although there is very basic money paid out to all Olympic sports. How much of it reaches the athletes? Who knows? Financials aren’t very transparent. Athletes lose their medical coverage very easily, even if injured in the sport. There are a number of lawsuits about this, especially where an athlete incurs a chronic disease or injury.

As a final point, I want to point out that ‘elite’ sports are, IME, not elitist and never far from you. A sport club’s survival is dependent on its membership (just as a coach is dependent on students), and most will welcome any enthusiast into the fold. Access to top coaching is usually just a matter of a phone call or email. For example, both in Canada and in the US, I work with Olympic/national team coaches in a non-horse sport. I’m a nobody, just an adult who loves to train and compete, and despite my very late start (mid40s) in this sport, received nothing but encouragement from some very elite – but non-elitist – people. That, in turn, has opened a number of surprising opportunities for me, and even more importantly, led to some great friendships.

[Winding_Down]

I can attest to the attention that even college level football players get for injuries that far surpasses what I got. When I severed my ACL when I was on the faculty of a university, I shared physical therapy facilities with football players with similar injuries. I was so impressed with all that was done for these athletes and how quickly they returned to playing football, while I was still struggling with walking and bending. They had a team of therapists working with them multiple times per day.

I doubt that equestrians get as much of that but I would not be suprised that they request and receive more extensive services, and work harder than many of us would in restoring fitness.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8163459]
I can attest to the attention that even college level football players get for injuries that far surpasses what I got. When I severed my ACL when I was on the faculty of a university, I shared physical therapy facilities with football players with similar injuries. I was so impressed with all that was done for these athletes and how quickly they returned to playing football, while I was still struggling with walking and bending. They had a team of therapists working with them multiple times per day. [/QUOTE]

But you’re going to find this more often in major college sports than just about anywhere else. Some unis treat all athletes equally; others have a big divide between the major sports and the non-majors, some of which only exist due to Title IX.

In a uni, you have a closed community with good support and an integrated healthcare service. However, most ‘elite’ athletes don’t have it this good or this comfortable.

An example from real life: a sport has by-laws that provide coaching and travel support for athletes who have made the national team standards. But, curiously, no athletes are on that team. The top athletes, who qualify for all the majors including the Olympics, are on the ‘development team’.

Why is that? It’s because the national team standards are impossible to attain unless you’re already in the top ten or fifteen in the world. If you’re trying to get there, good luck. The NSF doesn’t want to help you by making the standards realistic – they’d rather not have to spend money on you.

This means that when you go out looking for sponsors, those potential sponsors will want to know why you’re not on the national team. And so on. Meanwhile, there are competitors from other nations who are not as good as you, but are benefitting from the support of their NSFs.

[quietann]

Clavicle fractures are tricky. I had a very bad one in 2008 as many of you know. I fainted in between two jumps, slipped off the side of the horse, and landed on the point of my shoulder. Collarbone got pushed in so there were two sharp ends overlapping and poking at each other, I had 5 broken ribs and a partially collapsed lung.

Had to wait two weeks for surgery because of the ribs and lung, but I am sure that if I’d been an elite athlete I would have pushed for surgery sooner. The difference was incredible once the damn thing had a plate and pins holding it together; I was still in a lot of pain but stabilizing the clavicle made all the difference. I was back on a horse (being led around on a friend’s pony) for the first time about 10 days post-surgery (not recommended and certainly not something I told my doctor!) and actually riding – for very short periods and only at a walk – about a week after that.

As another contrast between an elite athlete and well, very ordinary me, my surgeon didn’t even offer me PT until almost 3 months after the accident – and then was suitably horrified when I told him I didn’t need it because I was grooming horses and riding a bit! He was, in fact, the surgeon used by many pro athletes in Boston and I am sure he would have understood and worked with their desire to get back into play ASAP. But not me; I was just a fat middle-aged woman who rode as a hobby.

[Jealoushe]

I understand some on this thread are close and tied to the riders being discussed. I am sorry it is hard to read this, but honestly like it was said 2 falls within 2 weeks - one almost resulting in death is worth discussing. No one is bashing the riders, it’s a respectful and interesting discussion about what factors might make riders make poor choices etc. Please don’t bring the discussion down with the hurt feelings report. Any rider is able to make their own choices, and being at the top level of the sport, we are allowed to review them. Equestrian is not immune to this, although it gets it minimally compared to other sports.

The comment that JP had a baby and won Jersey Fresh the last time has no bearing, because this time she had a very very serious fall. Sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes your luck runs out. We don’t know which it was because we don’t have all the answers, but discussing might help us understand a little.

[Fred]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8164039]
I understand some on this thread are close and tied to the riders being discussed. I am sorry it is hard to read this, but honestly like it was said 2 falls within 2 weeks - one almost resulting in death is worth discussing. No one is bashing the riders, it’s a respectful and interesting discussion about what factors might make riders make poor choices etc. Please don’t bring the discussion down with the hurt feelings report. Any rider is able to make their own choices, and being at the top level of the sport, we are allowed to review them. Equestrian is not immune to this, although it gets it minimally compared to other sports.

The comment that JP had a baby and won Jersey Fresh the last time has no bearing, because this time she had a very very serious fall. Sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes your luck runs out. We don’t know which it was because we don’t have all the answers, but discussing might help us understand a little.[/QUOTE]

If I am one of the people you are referring to, Jealoushe - I don’t appreciate the slightly snarky and condescending tone. “hurt feelings report” ? really? - I don’t see anyone here with ‘hurt feelings’.
By saying so you are the one" bringing the discussion down".
Your interest seems to be somewhat more than just “concern”. IMO - you have made comments in the past about some of our UL riders, and in this thread made other implications about having inside knowledge about the horses’ fitness.
I care as much about the safety of the horses as anyone.
In particular, I have an attachment to one of the horses being discussed. I have never met her rider.
But I still think some of the comments about a rider’s pregnancy/childbirth/ (whether she is breastfeeding???) are out of line, and sound a lot more like conjecture and gossip than concern.
You have your opinion. I have mine.

[fooler]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8164039]
I understand some on this thread are close and tied to the riders being discussed. I am sorry it is hard to read this, but honestly like it was said 2 falls within 2 weeks - one almost resulting in death is worth discussing. No one is bashing the riders, it’s a respectful and interesting discussion about what factors might make riders make poor choices etc. Please don’t bring the discussion down with the hurt feelings report. Any rider is able to make their own choices, and being at the top level of the sport, we are allowed to review them. Equestrian is not immune to this, although it gets it minimally compared to other sports.

The comment that JP had a baby and won Jersey Fresh the last time has no bearing, because this time she had a very very serious fall. Sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes your luck runs out. We don’t know which it was because we don’t have all the answers, but discussing might help us understand a little.[/QUOTE]

My apology if my facts are off, but if JP is riding a different horse or even the same horse who is now several years older those are other factors.
We all know “we don’t” have the same relationship with every horse we ride. Plus that relationship modifies as we both age and especially as we humans go through changes (marriage, children, family additions/deaths).

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=Fred;8164070]
If I am one of the people you are referring to, Jealoushe - I don’t appreciate the slightly snarky and condescending tone. “hurt feelings report” ? really? - I don’t see anyone here with ‘hurt feelings’.
By saying so you are the one" bringing the discussion down".
Your interest seems to be somewhat more than just “concern”. IMO - you have made comments in the past about some of our UL riders, and in this thread made other implications about having inside knowledge about the horses’ fitness.
I care as much about the safety of the horses as anyone.
In particular, I have an attachment to one of the horses being discussed. I have never met her rider.
But I still think some of the comments about a rider’s pregnancy/childbirth/ (whether she is breastfeeding???) are out of line, and sound a lot more like conjecture and gossip than concern.
You have your opinion. I have mine.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t being snarky…it was sarcasm… - “hurt feelings report” is an internet joke that rolls around… sorry if it offended you, was not my intention nor was it aimed at anyone in particular.

[seriously1]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8164039]
I understand some on this thread are close and tied to the riders being discussed. I am sorry it is hard to read this, but honestly like it was said 2 falls within 2 weeks - one almost resulting in death is worth discussing. No one is bashing the riders, it’s a respectful and interesting discussion about what factors might make riders make poor choices etc. Please don’t bring the discussion down with the hurt feelings report. Any rider is able to make their own choices, and being at the top level of the sport, we are allowed to review them. Equestrian is not immune to this, although it gets it minimally compared to other sports.

The comment that JP had a baby and won Jersey Fresh the last time has no bearing, because this time she had a very very serious fall. Sometimes accidents happen, and sometimes your luck runs out. We don’t know which it was because we don’t have all the answers, but discussing might help us understand a little.[/QUOTE]

I would be a little surprised if all the second guessing resulted in clarification. In fact, it seemed to have more questions. I do think the questions would be more effective if they became more big picture and less individualize.

Perhaps it is time to revisit the purpose of this thread - which seemed as though the purpose was to examine possible causes of falls, injuries and deaths and brainstorm possibilities to make a change…?

[kdow]

[QUOTE=Fred;8164070]

But I still think some of the comments about a rider’s pregnancy/childbirth/ (whether she is breastfeeding???) are out of line, and sound a lot more like conjecture and gossip than concern.[/QUOTE]

Except I don’t actually care what this rider in particular is doing in terms of judging her, I am looking at it as she is an example of a type of problem that can happen. Someone objected to people describing childbirth as a ‘trauma’ to the body because it’s a natural thing that the body does, or some such. Yes, it is a natural thing, but it is actually pretty traumatic! Trauma does not mean accidental injury, it means ‘major thing your body has to recover from.’ And no one cares if she’s breastfeeding in terms of judging her as a mother (omg, she isn’t breast feeding! Shun! Omg, she is breast feeding, shun!) but it does have relevance to nutritional needs when recovering - same as you have to feed a lactating mare differently than one without a foal.

So there are all these things to consider - maybe talking about them here will mean someone else in a similar position thinks differently about things and makes a more informed choice before THEY go out to compete. Maybe talking about them helps understand the level of pressure involved at the higher levels (“she had all kinds of reasons to possibly not ride, and did so anyway, what’s up with that? She doesn’t seem like the kind of person who’d do something without thinking about it.”) and therefore generates more thought about if that pressure is a good thing, and if there is some other system which would reduce the pressure on ULRs to get out and ride no matter what. And so on and so forth.

It is not personal in the sense of “omg, this person is a bad rider and makes stupid decisions, no one ever ride with her again” - it is just “okay, what could have been going on here, what can be learned, what could possibly be changed, etc.”

I mean, if we can’t discuss any incidents or accidents at any level without people getting all upset and personally insulted about it, we really are not going to get much of anywhere useful with improving safety. Ideally, those discussions would not be happening on an internet forum, but since TPTB don’t seem to want to do it, someone has to. I assure you, when the NTSB is investigating a plane crash, they are not thinking ‘oh, we’d better not say the pilot made a mistake because it’ll hurt someone’s feelings.’

[snoopy]

@Manahmanah;8156424

The fact is you are not (at all) likely to sustain serious injury in this sport unless you are an upper level rider on an upper level course.

What an utterly ridiculous comment.