WTF Are We Doing?

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=kdow;8164219]

It is not personal in the sense of “omg, this person is a bad rider and makes stupid decisions, no one ever ride with her again” - it is just “okay, what could have been going on here, what can be learned, what could possibly be changed, etc.”

I mean, if we can’t discuss any incidents or accidents at any level without people getting all upset and personally insulted about it, we really are not going to get much of anywhere useful with improving safety. Ideally, those discussions would not be happening on an internet forum, but since TPTB don’t seem to want to do it, someone has to. I assure you, when the NTSB is investigating a plane crash, they are not thinking ‘oh, we’d better not say the pilot made a mistake because it’ll hurt someone’s feelings.’[/QUOTE]

I even stated I highly doubt a new mother would make a decision to ride around Rolex or Jersey Fresh haphazardly. But individuals do not always make the best decisions, even if they think they are - it’s part of being human - and a major reason we have this thread going. I think this thread has remained civilized while discussing JP; probably because there are so many woman who have to juggle pregnancy, motherhood and a career. Men do not have to make those decisions; its tough…

[goodmorning]

[QUOTE=4Martini;8163310]
Darn, the sport is now mathematically impossible.[/QUOTE]

:lol:

You’ve never been over-prepared? Fitter than needed? To each there own; if you aren’t participating in a sport with eventings level of risk that is…

[Foxtrot_s]

But - when I was pregnant with my first child I did not feel in the least bit less capable of riding and eventing (at Training). However, I did fall off when I was five month pregnant because of being unbalanced with the extra weight, and husband said eventing was a no-go. But then, immediately after daughter was born I fell off again - because the weight distribution was different and I had not re-adjusted…

However, my fitness and riding level were not anywhere near the elite athlete level.

Just saying that having these kids can make a difference, and neither am I judging anybody or offering an opinion.

Fun it was, doing a phase of an event, rushing into the camper to breastfeed, doing the next phase, breastfeeding again…etc.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8163459]
I can attest to the attention that even college level football players get for injuries that far surpasses what I got. When I severed my ACL when I was on the faculty of a university, I shared physical therapy facilities with football players with similar injuries. I was so impressed with all that was done for these athletes and how quickly they returned to playing football, while I was still struggling with walking and bending. They had a team of therapists working with them multiple times per day.

I doubt that equestrians get as much of that but I would not be suprised that they request and receive more extensive services, and work harder than many of us would in restoring fitness.[/QUOTE]

A physical trainer type person is a huge asset. At my university, ours was available to any student, and she was tremendous. I learned a ton from her, and she had all kinds of tricks up her sleeve… and rehab wasn’t fun but it was effective. This was a school where sports were for all students and for fun, not for packing the seats with spectators. But where I live now, I don’t think there’s someone with that kind of practice in my whole county, and I don’t know where I’d find one even if I’d go out of the area.

[poltroon]

One of the things I think we can do at the sport while still giving people the autonomy to make the decisions that are best for their personal circumstances is to address some of the pressures that make people run when maybe things aren’t 100%.

What kinds of things might those be?

[LadyB]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8163097]
I hope everyone gets the best care. I find this interesting, because I can assure you, I have access to the best Dr.s in the world where I live - You make a phone call & get in right away. It’s very easy…but the best Dr’s do put you back together in a way that suits your lifestyle; which they will tell you may not be the best way to put you back together Knowing this - of course I question an athletes ability to come back & direct a horse around a serious course. How many riders can afford not to be 110% while riding around the ULs?[/QUOTE]

Keep in mind this is a CANADIAN rider and not American. Where our wait list is a tad different as it’s covered. Americans can pay for the quicker surgery as long as they have the funding. In Canada there is always a long wait list so for her to be pushed ahead would be because she is one of our Elite Athletes who needs some of the best care compared to an amateur like me. If we want our country to win we do what we can to make the best of our athletes.

My point was that she did it at the Olympics. I don’t see her passing up the Pan Ams that easily either. What else do UL eventer a work towards day in and day out? When that’s your CAREER to put food on the table and pay bills I think it’s a little bit more important than someone who just rides at horse trials on weekends. Like I’ve said in my previous post, you can’t ride the waves of being an a Elite Athlete if you don’t continue to stay up there. Those riders are easily forgotten and students and owners move on. You have to keep everyone happy still, whether that includes a sore body or not.

Really we will never know the answer to what happened or why. It’s exhausting to see that people still continue on about it. I just hope everyone uses this energy to help create a safer sport without removing eventing completely.

[vineyridge]

She was injured in America and was in an American hospital.

[omare]

She is home now,

[Winding_Down]

Quote Originally Posted by Manahmanah
The fact is you are not (at all) likely to sustain serious injury in this sport unless you are an upper level rider on an upper level course.

[QUOTE=snoopy;8164225]
What an utterly ridiculous comment.[/QUOTE]

I do not think this is ridiculous at all. You are not at all likely to sustain a serious injury at the lower levels. Actually, you are not likely to sustain a serious injury at any level. You certainly could sustan a serious injury… but chances are, you will not.
???

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8164901]
I do not think this is ridiculous at all. You are not at all likely to sustain a serious injury at the lower levels. Actually, you are not likely to sustain a serious injury at any level. You certainly could sustan a serious injury… but chances are, you will not.
???[/QUOTE]

I actually think the point is that blanket statements like that are not helpful and perhaps misleading. Yes, chances of a serious injury are higher on UL courses but can happen at any level. Christopher Reeves was competing at training level. There was another local rider who was seriously injured at training level at Fair Hill I believe last year. I’m often on a green horse and I’m more likely to get injured on them at novice than on my more experienced horse at Prelim.

In the end, I do think we as riders can minimize the risks we individually take. Making smart decisions, riding appropriate horses and being well prepared are some of the most effective safety measures we can take. As a sport, we do need to continually examine these issues but examine them with full information.

[Janet]

Quote Originally Posted by Manahmanah
The fact is you are not (at all) likely to sustain serious injury in this sport unless you are an upper level rider on an upper level course.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8164930]
I actually think the point is that blanket statements like that are not helpful and perhaps misleading. Yes, chances of a serious injury are higher on UL courses but can happen at any level. Christopher Reeves was competing at training level. There was another local rider who was seriously injured at training level at Fair Hill I believe last year. [/QUOTE]

Also, there was a CDC study a while ago on equestrian injuries in general. Do you know what is the MOST DANGEROUS riding activity (most likely to put you in the Emergency Room)??

Walking on loose rein.

Jumping, in general, was quite low down on the list.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Janet;8164965]
Also, there was a CDC study a while ago on equestrian injuries in general. Do you know what is the MOST DANGEROUS riding activity (most likely to put you in the Emergency Room)??

Walking on loose rein.

Jumping, in general, was quite low down on the list.[/QUOTE]

Yes…and mounting and dismounting are high on the list.

[Jealoushe]

Injuries and accidents can occur at any time, I’m sure we all know this. What we don’t know is why some of the more serious accidents occur quite frequently in our sport.

I do think rider responsibility is often left out of the discussion because a lot of people don’t like to think or accept that some riders might make poor decisions. This isn’t pointed to anyone, but I tend to agree with whoever suggested rider qualifications need to be revisted in possibly losing them along with the horse when there are a few incidents.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165029]
Yes…and mounting and dismounting are high on the list.[/QUOTE]

PLEASE do not remind me of this. Forty four years of riding, and my most serious injury is a bad judgement moment jumping onto my horse.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8165073]
Injuries and accidents can occur at any time, I’m sure we all know this. What we don’t know is why some of the more serious accidents occur quite frequently in our sport.

I do think rider responsibility is often left out of the discussion because a lot of people don’t like to think or accept that some riders might make poor decisions. This isn’t pointed to anyone, but I tend to agree with whoever suggested rider qualifications need to be revisted in possibly losing them along with the horse when there are a few incidents.[/QUOTE]

Although I agree with this in principle, there have been issues with implementation in the past. I think that this is largely due to a situation that we often refer to as the “Rescue Principle” in health care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_Rescue). That is, we agree that these requalifications are necessary and agree to certain objective criteria, but then when we see these rules applied to a popular rider, I think that is was Dorothy Crowell??? the last time, not to mention the situation with Philip, we are not at all comfortable with forcing requalification. So the rule is good, but the implementation in individual cases makes us uncomfortable.

[Manahmanah]

To be clear, I am not saying that accidents cannot happen at lower levels. that would be silly. I am saying that they are (generally!) not due to “eventing”. They are more about bad decision making, rider or horse moving up too fast, Etc. Being popped out of the tack because you are too loose in it isn’t due to eventing, IMO. That sort of thing could happen in an arena, hunter pace, etc.

Accidents like the unfixed portable rolling and killing the Russian young rider a few years back… those are due to eventing absolutely. Thank goodness people are better about this now.

I used to snowboard. I love snowboarding. I am spectacularly bad at snowboarding. Despite attempting only easy hills, having lessons and packing on the safety gear I kept hurting myself. Eventually I admitted that this was just not my sport. The fact that I kept hurting myself wasn’t snowboarding’s fault. It was just simply because I was bad. This is what I mean.

[vineyridge]

Seems to me that if we limit rider reverse qualification to horse falls, we might be less sensitive in individual cases. Horse usually do not fall by themselves. They fall because of rider error, except in cases where the footing is at fault. NO horse fall is ever a thing to treat lightly, although many rider falls are. I recognize that many rider falls cause serious injury, but horse falls are far more likely to. And horse falls are only ones that cause horse death.

If rider reverse qualification, regardless of the horse, were to be instituted people would be more likely to accept it if the triggering events are horse falls.

[redalter]

This is an EXCEPTIONAL post

[QUOTE=FLeventer;8160521]
There is considerably more pressure on professional riders now than there was twenty years ago. We need to have good results at events to make a living, gain sponsership, sell horses, and gain clients. Entries are up at the winter events and now if you want to play with the big boys, you travel south which equals even more financial pressure.

We have to get owners and syndicate members to buy competitive horses. Riders have to listen to them when they tell us to run a horse thats not 100%or lose the ride. Some riders say no, some riders dont.

Ive watched more than one up and coming professional ride a lame horse to xc at a HT and have one of the scariest rides Ive seen at OI. She came off the course and thought it was wonderful. Ive since cut toes due to the nasty taste that was left in my mouth at watching this.

At the end of the day ive seen more shady bullcrap from UL riders and pros than I actually ever wanted to see. It comes from the will to win at all costs including the horse. Riders are desperate to get results to be competitive and in some cases it comes at a risk to horse and rider that they deem acceptable.

Is it right?, no. Does it happen? More than people would like to believe.

Dressage is a huge factor. Gone is the day that a horse can be near the back of the leader board after dressage and win after a double clear xc and sj. It doesnt happen any more. Long gone is the OTTB or backyard cross who beings you safely around a course. There are some, dont get me wrong, but instead riders are looking at WBs and ISHs. Many have to be imported, some found in the usa but all with a heavy price tag. Well the expense to win.

So then they spend double the time in the sandbox instead of taking thier horse xc schooling, they show jump. Also this horse is more than they can afford to begin with, so it doesnt hunt and learn to find distances and have a fifth leg and deal with footing. The horse show jumps in a groomed ring and gallops on a track and swims in a pool instead of doing trot sets and schooling.

So you have a horse who knows how to flat and show jump really well, but isnt exactly a xc horse. Also you bought a heavy horse with less tb blood which isnt going to help you late in the course when hes tired and cant save your behind when he gets a crap distance or when he hangs a leg. So glad you did that extra flat school instead of taking him xc or a conditioning ride, arent you now?

Money money money money money. The sport becomes more expensive in vet care, entry fees, horse blood, xc schooling, lessons, equipment, and everything else. You have to have money to play. You may sacrifice safety and morals to just get a bit more ahead. Owner wants dobbin to go do the 2* but hes not quite ready but the owner said. Or owner wants you to run dobbin when hes not quite 100% because hes 5th after dressage. Its a tough choice for some riders and sometimes they dont make the right choice for the horse or for them.

Keep fighting away at a horse who isnt confident at the level and has issues, but I need to have a horse going this level to be relevant. Bam accident.

So many factors, so many but at the end of the day, the pressure is extreme and the riders feel it. Some dont make a sound decision. Some make a welfare choice for the horse and get the animal yanked and are left with nothing. Gun shy the next time an owner tells them to run the horse, afraid they might lose the ride, they do it. Bam horse falls at fence on course.

Im not sure you can end it. I think it may be too deep of an issue to solve. We fundamentally changed the sport to give dressage and SJ ebough of a winning advantage that xc is thrown to the side. Well I can do grids instead doesnt exactly work. The training sessions for jumping are held over SJ fences not xc fences for the most part. Thats telling.

I dont want to die. Really I want to survive. Ive watched some nasty falls and some nasty near saves and at the end of the day Im a bit sick of it. I dont want to gasp so much watching xc that it sounds like Im in a perpetual state of suprise.

I dont want to see horses die. Ive seen enough, dont want to see more. Ive watched horses be put in situations where the rider gets them under a massive table and expects them to get over it safely. Well maybe you should have taught the horse to gallop out of stride instead of fighting before that fence and gunning at a distance that wasnt there?

What UL rider with an active and current UL career is calling for change? Im not talking Denny or Jimmy but the riders who contested the 3* at Fair Hill or Rolex or any major event. Where the heck are they? Any of them asking for change? Nope they arent. They are continuing this cycle and hoping its not going to be them. Its the LL riders and the AAs asking for change.

Not happening that way. Get Boyd and Phillip and Lainey and the Wills and Clark and Kim and Marylyn and Lauren to stand up for it and maybe youll have a voice but until then its nothing. It has no voice thats powerful enough to make change.

I wrote this with US riders in mind even though I realize this is a global issue that is a problem for all eventers not just Americans. I also typed it on my phone so sorry for grammer, spelling and lack of sense in places.[/QUOTE]

And speaks to so many issues in the sport today.
I see so much of this, too, all the time.

And I am not AT ALL beating up on the pros - it seems that it is SO MUCH harder to make a living and stay relevant today than 20 certainly 30 years ago.

Which is understandable, but is so very much a part of the problem

[Jealoushe]

Exactly…it is part of the problem.

I agree with your post viney.

I also agree with above. The thread about the other injured rider aiming for Pan Ams is and example of what the problem is. We know eventers are tough and hardy but coming off a serious injury and rotational fall - and aiming for a team competition in about 45 days is a poor choice. It is not the best for horse and rider, it is the best for the riders career. A fall can have serious confidence repercussions in horses. Something that time and schooling is best to resolve.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=redalter;8165331]
And speaks to so many issues in the sport today.
I see so much of this, too, all the time.

And I am not AT ALL beating up on the pros - it seems that it is SO MUCH harder to make a living and stay relevant today than 20 certainly 30 years ago.

Which is understandable, but is so very much a part of the problem[/QUOTE]

I actually disagree. It is not harder now than it ever was. People make choices. I choose not to make horses my job as I do not come from money. It has ALWAYS been hard if you do not have family money. Just as it is anywhere.

I’m also a part of a syndicate…and an owner…I’ve NEVER heard of owners telling riders to run horses who are less than 100%. If that does happen…it is a very small minority. The rider may feel pressure to produce results but that is not the same thing…and most put the pressure on themselves.

Bottom line…it is a VERY hard way to make a living…just as it is hard if you have a non-horse job and can’t be riding daily. (I was DAMN good when I rode 6-10 horses a day. It is much harder to be at the same level riding less.). None of it excuses poor horsemanship or dangerous decision making.

It is still the rider’s responsibility to know their limits and their horse’s limits. To be prepared for the levels they choose to compete at.