[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165483]
I actually disagree. It is not harder now than it ever was. People make choices. I choose not to make horses my job as I do not come from money. It has ALWAYS been hard if you do not have family money. Just as it is anywhere.
I’m also a part of a syndicate…and an owner…I’ve NEVER heard of owners telling riders to run horses who are less than 100%. If that does happen…it is a very small minority. The rider may feel pressure to produce results but that is not the same thing…and most put the pressure on themselves.
Bottom line…it is a VERY hard way to make a living…just as it is hard if you have a non-horse job and can’t be riding daily. (I was DAMN good when I rode 6-10 horses a day. It is much harder to be at the same level riding less.). None of it excuses poor horsemanship or dangerous decision making.
It is still the rider’s responsibility to know their limits and their horse’s limits. To be prepared for the levels they choose to compete at.[/QUOTE]
You disagree with my agreeing with Fleventers post? Or my post?
That it is difficult to make a living as an UL rider?
That I have witnessed a big time owner or two pushing on a rider to run a horse that the rider felt was not ready for a 3*? 4*?
That it might seem a bit harder today to make a living because as FL pointed out, less ULR’s make their horses - I don’t know, I’ve not seen stats, but it seems with teaching, and giving clinics, etc., that there is not the same amount of time to make a horse from scratch for a ULR- not that many still don’t do it.
Entry fees are higher.
Yes, more people involved in the sport, lots and lots of pros out there, competing for a relatively smaller pool of funds.
I understand that is not how you run your program.
But over the last 25 years or so, yes, I have seen some things like that.
I also stated that I in NO WAY meant to pick on a pro, at all, quite the reverse, I think it is a HARD way to make a living.
And, yes, pressure does exist, whether self imposed or imposed by the owners/syndicate members, whatever, to keep the riders/horses going.
And that inevitably will impact the sport.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8165409]
Exactly…it is part of the problem.
I agree with your post viney.
I also agree with above. The thread about the other injured rider aiming for Pan Ams is and example of what the problem is. We know eventers are tough and hardy but coming off a serious injury and rotational fall - and aiming for a team competition in about 45 days is a poor choice. It is not the best for horse and rider, it is the best for the riders career. A fall can have serious confidence repercussions in horses. Something that time and schooling is best to resolve.[/QUOTE]
I found the whole commentary enlightening, but the specific quote the most blunt and damning of this sport.
Throughout 14 pages of commentary, barely any came with concrete ideas to adjust the sport for safety of the Horse AND rider. It has been an interesting read though. Let’s take these two examples bounced around, a rider who recently gave birth and one with an injury. Some suppose that competing at a high level so soon after child birth may impact ability (temporarily) and these courses are becoming less forgiving of mistakes. Then there is the mental aspect of getting on a horse with either an existing injury or a recently healed one and the potential impact it has on confidence.
Do we stop these two riders from getting back on? Do we say, you need to go back a level and show us you are really okay before you push on the same level or above. Redalter’s point was that professionals (today) feel a pressure above the norm to perform for otherwise, they can be replaced, traded out for better. Instead of BFNE’s view that this stuff NEVER happens, let’s take the conservative view that it does…
What steps could be taken to minimize or reduce that pressure, taking the need to compete away by establishing rules that limit irrational decision making? Perhaps a rule that requires a rider that had a baby either wait longer times, or needs to ride at one or more lower levels for half a year. Perhaps on injuries due to falling, the rider cannot ride at their current level, but needs to go back one for a few rides.
While there are qualification rules, there seems to be little in regards to coming back from trauma or body changes.
Perhaps horse rules need to change to stop pushing horses up the levels as quick as possible. Folks can always use the phrase “well my horses can handle the pressure”, but rules need to reflect the majority. Does the sport come to an end if horses take more time going through the level process? Maybe they already require it, but how about sending a horse back one or even two levels after a fall.
Denny Emerson wrote about seeing the current Rider as more Jockey because of how modern syndicates work, with the string of horses, and professionals coming to events with many horses. This seems to not reflect the core of Eventing, that bond between rider and horse, the trust that is talked about being needed to be a success.
Yet at the end of the day, redalter speaks the truth for while people in the lower levels (AA) raise the issues, ask the questions, start the lists, and are the majority of riders, people in power do not want to hear them. I think we do this because when you have one, maybe two horses you see the innate value more than when you have (or ride) 6-10 a day. For us to lose a horse to injury ends our riding, for a professional, they get on the next horse in line. Folks talk about Rider responsibility, but that responsibility is vastly different for one who does not get paid versus one trying to make money and an honest view is that if the officiating body does not become proactive in Safety in the sport, professionals will not speak up afraid to lose an income, and amateurs/LLRs will speak up but be told, “you don’t understand, run along and play on our smaller jumps. We know best”.
does eventing need professionals to survive? I don’t think it does. I know there are many who disagree.
I think there are not a tonne of suggestions in this thread because they have been hashed out so many times lately. I feel lost, I don’t know about everyone else.
Maybe a 2-4 week suspension for any rider who has 1) rotational fall on any horse, or 2) is removed from an event by ambulance.
[QUOTE=redalter;8165550]
You disagree with my agreeing with Fleventers post? Or my post?
:)[/QUOTE]
I disagree with you stating it is harder now to be a pro. It isn’t. If anything it is EASIER. Event horses sell for a lot more, more participants buying training services and there are a LOT more people making a living in the sport.
It has never been an easy way to make a living and the vast majority who did (and many who do today) come from money…this is for a reason. As it has never been an easy or secure way to make a living…and if anything…it is easier today than it was 20 years ago.
I also disagree that it is typical to have owners of UL horses pushing riders to compete them when the rider is saying they are not ready. Does it EVER happen…of course. There are a few crazies out there…and most people will not work with them. But that is NOT typical. In addition…as someone who has read many syndicate agreements…and drafted a few…MOST syndicates are structured so that ONLY the rider determines the schedule. Yes there is pressure to perform well…hello…there is that pressure in EVERY profession. But I have seen RIDERS pushing a horse fast up the levels far FAR more often then a Rider being pushed to move a horse up faster by an owner.
In the past, we used to celebrate riders who fought back from injury and went to the Olympics, PanAms, etc. Did those riders have the sames types of falls then as they do today? Did we just not know about them because we did not have the internet and had to wait for the USCTA News to hear about them?
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165714]
I disagree with you stating it is harder now to be a pro. It isn’t. If anything it is EASIER. Event horses sell for a lot more, more participants buying training services and there are a LOT more people making a living in the sport.
It has never been an easy way to make a living and the vast majority who did (and may who do today) come from money…this is for a reason. As it has never been an easy or secure way to make a living…and if anything…it is easier today than it was 20 years ago.
I also disagree that it is typical to have owners of UL horses pushing riders to compete them when the rider is saying they are not ready. Does it EVER happen…of course. There are a few crazies out there…and most people will not work with them. But that is NOT typical. In addition…as someone who has read many syndicate agreements…and drafted a few…MOST syndicates are structured so that ONLY the rider determines the schedule. Yes there is pressure to perform well…hello…there is that pressure in EVERY profession. But I have seen RIDERS pushing a horse fast up the levels far FAR more often then a Rider being pushed to move a horse up faster by an owner.[/QUOTE]
I did not mean to assert that owners pushing riders is typical.
That I have seen it, yes, on more than one occasion. That I have had ULRs tell me they have experienced it and/or were worried about “losing the ride” - absolutely.
However. I am in no way blaming owners, syndicate members, etc. Nor riders.
But I have also seen riders pushing horses and themselves fast, often, too fast, up the levels. This happens in many sports.
Since we were discussing this sport, I mentioned my experiences.
As far as the level of difficulty in making a living in this sport, I can only relate what has been relayed to me by some of the ULRs that I have interacted with over the last 25 years or so. I do not make a living with horses, haven’t done so for a very long time.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165714]
I disagree with you stating it is harder now to be a pro. It isn’t. If anything it is EASIER. Event horses sell for a lot more, more participants buying training services and there are a LOT more people making a living in the sport.
It has never been an easy way to make a living and the vast majority who did (and may who do today) come from money…this is for a reason. As it has never been an easy or secure way to make a living…and if anything…it is easier today than it was 20 years ago.
I also disagree that it is typical to have owners of UL horses pushing riders to compete them when the rider is saying they are not ready. Does it EVER happen…of course. There are a few crazies out there…and most people will not work with them. But that is NOT typical. In addition…as someone who has read many syndicate agreements…and drafted a few…MOST syndicates are structured so that ONLY the rider determines the schedule. Yes there is pressure to perform well…hello…there is that pressure in EVERY profession. But I have seen RIDERS pushing a horse fast up the levels far FAR more often then a Rider being pushed to move a horse up faster by an owner.[/QUOTE]
I did not mean to assert that owners pushing riders is typical.
That I have seen it, yes, on more than one occasion. That I have had ULRs tell me they have experienced it and/or were worried about “losing the ride” - absolutely.
However. I am in no way blaming owners, syndicate members, etc. Nor riders.
But I have also seen riders pushing horses and themselves fast, often, too fast, up the levels. This happens in many sports.
Since we were discussing this sport, I mentioned my experiences.
As far as the level of difficulty in making a living in this sport, I can only relate what has been relayed to me by some of the ULRs that I have interacted with over the last 25 years or so. I do not make a living with horses, haven’t done so for a very long time.
Take Mark Todd for example. Jumping around Burghley or Badminton, can’t remember which with one stirrup. He basically says he did it because the owners were so happy their horse was there, he wanted to finish for them. Now being Mark Todd he pulled it off, but it could have been ugly. He says after that is the sort of thing he would know better now what not to do, as the horse was quite back sore after and it didn’t pass the jog anyway. Rider judgement.
As far as the level of difficulty in making a living in this sport, I can only relate what has been relayed to me by some of the ULRs that I have interacted with over the last 25 years or so. I do not make a living with horses, haven’t done so for a very long time.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been around long enough…and many (not all) of the current younger crop of pros seem to think they have it harder…they do NOT. When I first started evening in the early 90s…MOST eventers had jobs outside of horses (once out of YRs). Only a handful were “pros”. UL riders typically only had one or two UL horses. People generally didn’t go south for the winter because they had jobs.
I did make a living with horses but looked around and realized who had money…and I made a choice to further my education and get a job that would make me money. But I have many friends who stayed in horses. One isn’t a right or wrong choice…but many more are able to support themselves now in eventing than ever before. This is NOT always a good thing as I do think some younger people are not as aware of how much family money others may have which lets them work with horses (they still do work hard…but there is a HUGE difference if you have no safety net).
[QUOTE=poltroon;8164385]
One of the things I think we can do at the sport while still giving people the autonomy to make the decisions that are best for their personal circumstances is to address some of the pressures that make people run when maybe things aren’t 100%.
What kinds of things might those be?[/QUOTE]
This is a good point.
I know there are lots of studies, rules, etc that show the results of the problems - falls, injuries, etc.
But is there a general thought on what can be changed to make it better?
Courses?
Qualifications?
Order of xc vs sj?
I honestly don’t know, just asking.
People in all sports will sometimes make bad decisions. Not all people, but some. And those people will be more of a glaring example when things do go wrong. Though there are lots of people that do everything right, and still terrible accidents happen.
We all want to try to find a reason, something we can all look to and say “well, there it is! If we all just do or not do those things!”
Our sport does have a distinct element of danger, yes. Are there many who actively, tirelessly work to minimize it? Of course. But when things go wrong, there will ALWAYS be people, rightfully so, who want to examine every aspect to see if there is a place to change things for the better.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165762]
I’ve been around long enough…and many (not all) of the current younger crop of pros seem to think they have it harder…they do NOT. When I first started evening in the early 90s…MOST eventers had jobs outside of horses (once out of YRs). Only a handful were “pros”. UL riders typically only had one or two UL horses. People generally didn’t go south for the winter because they had jobs.
I did make a living with horses but looked around and realized who had money…and I made a choice to further my education and get a job that would make me money. But I have many friends who stayed in horses. One isn’t a right or wrong choice…but many more are able to support themselves now in eventing than ever before. This is NOT always a good thing as I do think some younger people are not as aware of how much family money others may have which lets them work with horses (they still do work hard…but there is a HUGE difference if you have no safety net).[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Bold mine.
IT seems that as the numbers grow, there is both good and bad - and yes, many of the up and coming pros feel it is harder. I don’t envy them, though I appreciate their passion.
IT seems that as the numbers grow, there is both good and bad - and yes, many of the up and coming pros feel it is harder. I don’t envy them, though I appreciate their passion.[/QUOTE]
Its not just the young pros…is sort of that generation (I certainly see it in the nonhorse world)…they feel the need for instant gratification and instant success. And when it doesn’t come fast enough…they feel like failures. Also because of social media…they seem even more competitive with the Jones.
LIFE is hard…and life with horses is full of both highs and low. Learning to deal with pressures is part of growing up. How to have people make the right choices with those pressures is VERY hard because often what they need is the experience of mistakes and failure. The problem is…if they make the mistakes in this sport…it can result in severe injury or death. I don’t know what the answer is other than good training…from the start…and having a culture that in general I do think eventing has where we reward the smart decision and display of good horsemanship.
I wonder about how things have changed–in many horse sports --I remember people riding with boots cut to fit over cast, etc etc. People completing on horses that were never heard of again. It was treated more like a war as far as sacrifces to be made (on human and horse bodies) for country and glory-- not a sport–In that respect it is a good things that certain attitudes have changed.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8165632]
does eventing need professionals to survive? I don’t think it does. I know there are many who disagree.
I think there are not a tonne of suggestions in this thread because they have been hashed out so many times lately. I feel lost, I don’t know about everyone else.
Maybe a 2-4 week suspension for any rider who has 1) rotational fall on any horse, or 2) is removed from an event by ambulance.[/QUOTE]
Well I would be one that would agree. I remember a post from JER that talked about the corruption at the international level and it is that sort of taint that has affected the sport.
Eventing does not need the Olympics and we would be better to be rid of it. Every four years, just another play environment for professionals, and not even a true 4*. Given what FEI proposed to do to the Olympics…we should run, not walk away.
I feel the same about most team events like the Pan Amsor even WEG (from a team standpoint). Eventing has is an individual effort and the idea of needing to do things to get on a team plays into the issues redalter brings up. These are what push the professional level more than the cornucopia of 4* that exist in the world and those can be played in every year.
The term professional is also gotten muddy for someone who trains people, but also trains to ride at a 3/4* is different than a professional that mainly rides/trains horses for owners/syndicates, but mainly gives clinics. What does the sport favor today?
Whenever I get “lost” in thinking about this sport I tend to fall back on the items that matter the most, my horse, what I am trying to accomplish today, and the fact the 99% of the people in this sport don’t really give a damn about me or what I feel about its future. I still speak up, but when they pat my head and say “go back to your sandbox little boy, we’re doing adult things here” I don’t get upset. Those adult things don’t seem to be going very well.
I do and will always feel horrible about any horse that gets hurt, any rider that gets hurt when inside, I feel we could have done better.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8165808]
Its not just the young pros…is sort of that generation (I certainly see it in the nonhorse world)…they feel the need for instant gratification and instant success. And when it doesn’t come fast enough…they feel like failures. Also because of social media…they seem even more competitive with the Jones.
LIFE is hard…and life with horses is full of both highs and low. Learning to deal with pressures is part of growing up. How to have people make the right choices with those pressures is VERY hard because often what they need is the experience of mistakes and failure. The problem is…if they make the mistakes in this sport…it can result in severe injury or death. I don’t know what the answer is other than good training…from the start…and having a culture that in general I do think eventing has where we reward the smart decision and display of good horsemanship.[/QUOTE]
EXACTLY!!! Yes, yes, yes!
That’s I think, a big part of this. Not against anyone at all, it is that mistakes and/or lapses of judgement have such big consequences.
That sense of instant gratification seems to becoming more prevalent.
[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8165632]
does eventing need professionals to survive? I don’t think it does. I know there are many who disagree.
I think there are not a tonne of suggestions in this thread because they have been hashed out so many times lately. I feel lost, I don’t know about everyone else.
Maybe a 2-4 week suspension for any rider who has 1) rotational fall on any horse, or 2) is removed from an event by ambulance.[/QUOTE]
I would be concerned about option 2 as a criteria unless entry terms or something specifically allowed someone other than the rider to determine if they were taken off in an ambulance, because otherwise a rider can always refuse to go with the EMTs in order to avoid the suspension. (“No, someone will drive me!” or the like.)
My understanding (from a friend who trained as a paramedic locally) is that while paramedics absolutely can’t say “no, you don’t need to go to the hospital” (because that is diagnosing and they can’t diagnose) they also have very limited options if the patient is conscious and coherent and refuses to be transported.
[QUOTE=JER;8163619]
But you’re going to find this more often in major college sports than just about anywhere else. Some unis treat all athletes equally; others have a big divide between the major sports and the non-majors, some of which only exist due to Title IX.[/QUOTE]
In the USA, the NCAA mandates that access to health care services is equal for all athletes (regardless of sport, Division, or Title IX status). While there is a hierarchy for live/on-field coverage based on contact (i.e. football/LAX/hockey are higher up the ladder than swimming/tennis/golf), all sanctioned practices and team training sessions must have coverage by qualified medical personnel (i.e. Certified Athletic Trainers). The NCAA also has a ‘formula’ to calculate the number of required staff to meet the school’s needs based on the number of athletes served and contact risk–while this is not enforced (and it should be)–schools cannot give what resources they have to ‘money’ sports and ignore the rest.
And while the olympic training centers have Certified Athletic Trainers on staff, it would be great if our sport system would support providing this coverage to equestrian athletes (FWIW, sports like the LPGA often provide ATCs at tournaments for all the athletes to use.) If USEA/USEF wanted to do this, I’d be happy to volunteer.
