WTF Are We Doing?

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=kdow;8166040]
I would be concerned about option 2 as a criteria unless entry terms or something specifically allowed someone other than the rider to determine if they were taken off in an ambulance, because otherwise a rider can always refuse to go with the EMTs in order to avoid the suspension. (“No, someone will drive me!” or the like.)

My understanding (from a friend who trained as a paramedic locally) is that while paramedics absolutely can’t say “no, you don’t need to go to the hospital” (because that is diagnosing and they can’t diagnose) they also have very limited options if the patient is conscious and coherent and refuses to be transported.[/QUOTE]

I thought of that too and it actually just happened at my show here. Rider fell and hit her head, was not %100 with it, didn’t want ambulance but first responder on site insisted. That is sad case we have to worry about that but people certainly are not all with it when they are first injured.

It seems a lot of falls happen in the first 1/3 of the course…any insights?

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=IFG;8165728]
In the past, we used to celebrate riders who fought back from injury and went to the Olympics, PanAms, etc. [/QUOTE]

Many still do…

[Lady_Eboshi]

Maybe the time has come for the jumps to fall down when they hit 'em. Make XC into a foxhunter’s outside course again–that’s exactly how it started out, back before they were trying to make it into trick jumping crossed with the Indy 500. Natural rails, coops, brush, etc., all on jump cups that will fall. Then a mistake won’t have to be paid for (every weekend) with a horse or rider’s life. After all, the freedom of the Western World is no longer riding on the daring of our riders or the stamina of their horses.

Obviously, due to today’s lower risk tolerance, higher animal welfare consciousness, and different values with regard to the meaning of “sport,” (less jingoistic/militaristic than in days of yore) this isn’t going to survive long as the gladiatorial contest it has always been under the elegant clothes and shiny hides. So maybe the time has come to make it safe® for the vast majority of fresh-faced young people and gainfully employed professionals who enjoy it, and relegate the knuckle-dragging machismo to 20th-century cavalry history. The original point of all of that has no place in the modern world.

[jumpsnake]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8166287]
Maybe the time has come for the jumps to fall down when they hit 'em. Make XC into a foxhunter’s outside course again–that’s exactly how it started out, back before they were trying to make it into trick jumping crossed with the Indy 500. Natural rails, coops, brush, etc., all on jump cups that will fall. Then a mistake won’t have to be paid for (every weekend) with a horse or rider’s life. After all, the freedom of the Western World is no longer riding on the daring of our riders or the stamina of their horses.

Obviously, due to today’s lower risk tolerance, higher animal welfare consciousness, and different values with regard to the meaning of “sport,” (less jingoistic/militaristic than in days of yore) this isn’t going to survive long as the gladiatorial contest it has always been under the elegant clothes and shiny hides. So maybe the time has come to make it safe® for the vast majority of fresh-faced young people and gainfully employed professionals who enjoy it, and relegate the knuckle-dragging machismo to 20th-century cavalry history. The original point of all of that has no place in the modern world.[/QUOTE]

Yup. Maybe not the cups- but every fence needs to fall down. I know it is crazy expensive- but we could start now, and mandate that every new jump needs to be deformable. They can still look scary to the riders- but good grief, we can build skyscrapers and microchips, certainly we can build a jump that falls down if a horse hits it? I love eventing and will never be a UL rider- but this seems like a no- brainer to me.

[Janet]

I am having some problems with the internal logic of your post.

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8166287]
Maybe the time has come for the jumps to fall down when they hit 'em. Make XC into a foxhunter’s outside course again–
…

So maybe the time has come to make it safe® for the vast majority of fresh-faced young people and gainfully employed professionals who enjoy it, and relegate the knuckle-dragging machismo to 20th-century cavalry history. The original point of all of that has no place in the modern world.[/QUOTE]

Well, you can’t have it both ways.

1. It was not a “foxhunter’s outside course” before, so it can’t be one “again”.
   “Before” it was a test on an officer’s mount’s ability to deliver dispatches behind enemy lines. (I am not suggesting that we need to 'go back to" delivering dispatches". Just pointing out that it was never an “outside course”)

2. Even if you wanted to make it a “foxhunter’s outside course”, that would NOT include jumps that fall down.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=Janet;8166461]
I am having some problems with the internal logic of your post.

Well, you can’t have it both ways.

1. It was not a “foxhunter’s outside course” before, so it can’t be one “again”.
   “Before” it was a test on an officer’s mount’s ability to deliver dispatches behind enemy lines. (I am not suggesting that we need to 'go back to" delivering dispatches". Just pointing out that it was never an “outside course”)

2. Even if you wanted to make it a “foxhunter’s outside course”, that would NOT include jumps that fall down.[/QUOTE]

Actually, in the early grass-roots days of American eventing, many of the XC’s WERE run over hunter-trial courses, because that’s what they had. You’re right, some of those fences were permanent, but they were not freaky or trappy and tended to be a lot more forgiving of a jumping error than what everyone’s upset about lately.

Yes, I know ALL about Cavalry history, you should see my bookshelf. But the life-and-death danger of the Three Day paradigm then was necessary to officers’ training, just like fighter-pilot or Ranger training is today. In the Cavalry days, it was all about proving the combat readiness of man and mount; and comparing ours to that of other nations. Do you see that as a reasonable or relevant question for today’s Pony Clubbers and adult amateurs? Only symbolically.

Even allowing for the prevalence of adrenaline junkies that gravitate to Eventing, I’m not sure there are lots who are willing to sacrifice their horses on the altar of anachronistic antecedents.

I’d like to see a return to more natural galloping obstacles, getting rid of tables, skinnies, tiger-traps and the optical illusion things just designed to psych out riders, confuse horses, and provide lots of wrecks for the TV NASCAR mentality. There is no practical reason I can think of to jump horses over upside-down boats, vegetable stands or hay wagons, let alone through something resembling a hoop or a knothole. Get rid of the circus stunts.

And yes, they should come apart just like show jumps so rotational falls become rare freak accidents, not weekly occurrences.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Janet;8166461]
I am having some problems with the internal logic of your post.

Well, you can’t have it both ways.

1. It was not a “foxhunter’s outside course” before, so it can’t be one “again”.
   “Before” it was a test on an officer’s mount’s ability to deliver dispatches behind enemy lines. (I am not suggesting that we need to 'go back to" delivering dispatches". Just pointing out that it was never an “outside course”)

2. Even if you wanted to make it a “foxhunter’s outside course”, that would NOT include jumps that fall down.[/QUOTE]
   Going back on my posts, I remember finding this item that in 1949 the first “civilian” show was developed in the United States, separate from the Military style show. Later in 1953 the three day was introduced to reflect the Olympic format, but still civilian and most interesting of all, was designed at the Training Level to start.

It was also interesting to read that 1949 was the start of Badminton. The reason, to help British teams compete better at the Olympics so here again we have the shadow of the Olympics affecting the sport as a whole.

What would Eventing be had it not been so tied to the military aspect of competing in the Olympics? How high is too high, how hard is to hard and when considering those questions, what impact does our decision have on our horse.

Cross Country should be more about “delivering the dispatches” (as a metaphor), getting everyone through, judge performance on athleticism, not survival. Lady E has the valid point that this is not the 19th Century Cavalry sport anymore, but as a sport that reflects the foundations of its roots, focusing on submission, endurance, agility should still be at the forefront of the sport.

I do not agree with the notion that fences in the field need to be able to fall down. Short of making them all out of styrofoam, the logistics would be very costly. For cross country, focus on what it was meant to test, endurance, and let’s start to pull back from the extreme aspects that have little to do with the notion of “welfare of the horse”.

If the FEI can try that …thing… down in Wellington without tons of research, then it would be not out of the question to test run an event that extended the cross country course, limit the technical questions, dropped the heights just a little and focused on better pace (lose the watch if possible).

[Jealoushe]

But we have no proof that the jumps that fall down will change anything. Maybe better ground lines, less trick designed to trip a rider up.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=JP60;8166566]

It was also interesting to read that 1949 was the start of Badminton. The reason, to help British teams compete better at the Olympics so here again we have the shadow of the Olympics affecting the sport as a whole.

What would Eventing be had it not been so tied to the military aspect of competing in the Olympics?[/QUOTE]

Without the Olympics, Eventing would never have existed as a civilain sport. It would have died with the horse-mounted cavalry.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8166542]
Actually, in the early grass-roots days of American eventing, many of the XC’s WERE run over hunter-trial courses, because that’s what they had. [/QUOTE]
“Hunter trial course” does NOT = “outside course”.

Very different animals.

Neither have fences that fall down.

[FitToBeTied]

I think the closest thing around today to what people are thinking of as old style XC courses are the pairs races run in VA. They are run over hunt territory utilizing the jumps that the hunts use during hunting season. The footing is whatever is found that day and believe me the jumps don’t fall down. I’ve jumped a lot of stone walls in my time. The jumps can be trappy because of light, approaches, etc.

I don’t think making jumps that fall down, although I support frangible pins, is necessary because it will just teach horses that they can bang jumps.

I do hate the design of modern course though. Long gallops interrupted by short stadium courses.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=Janet;8166630]
Without the Olympics, Eventing would never have existed as a civilain sport. It would have died with the horse-mounted cavalry.[/QUOTE]
That is conjecture. While its from just one site, there is this

The first civilian three-day event held in the U.S. took place in 1949 and was run in conjunction with the Bryn Mawr Horse Show.

It was not till 1953 that the olympics factored in

In 1953, it was decided to organize a miniature event based on the Olympic three-day formula.

I can conjecture that in 1949, if that had been a successful show more would be tried, maybe fashioned on the mounted training, but softened for the general public. So many equestrian sports have developed without the need for an olympic hook and have done quite well. Perhaps some enterprising folks would have seen the potential to combine the various elements of equestrian sports to create something similar to Eventing.

The olympics co-opted the sport and has driven its direction ever since. Removing Eventing from the Olympics today would not end the sport where it matters the most, the 80-90 percent that will never want to see the other side of training.

[omare]

“But we have no proof that the jumps that fall down will change anything.”

I think you could get proof if you tried–comparing the rate of falls in showjumping. How many horses have fallen in the showjumping portion of eventing compared to the xc portion --prorate it by jumping efforts–comapred to the number of rails taken out in such jumping efforts?

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=omare;8166835]
“But we have no proof that the jumps that fall down will change anything.”

I think you could get proof if you tried–comparing the rate of falls in showjumping. How many horses have fallen in the showjumping portion of eventing compared to the xc portion --prorate it by jumping efforts–comapred to the number of rails taken out in such jumping efforts?[/QUOTE]

Good idea, but this wouldn’t account for many of the other factors present on XC courses - higher speeds/variations in speed, longer courses, variations in terrain, water obstacles/ditches etc. You probably could reduce the number of falls/incidents on XC if you turned it into SJ in open fields rather than an enclosed arena, but you’d have to take away the essential elements that makes eventing, eventing.

[Jealoushe]

[QUOTE=Backstage;8166902]
Good idea, but this wouldn’t account for many of the other factors present on XC courses - higher speeds/variations in speed, longer courses, variations in terrain, water obstacles/ditches etc. You probably could reduce the number of falls/incidents on XC if you turned it into SJ in open fields rather than an enclosed arena, but you’d have to take away the essential elements that makes eventing, eventing.[/QUOTE]

This is what I was going to say. I really think it goes beyond the fences. We can make eventing exciting with less tricky combinations by adding more endurance and different terrain. I think the endurance portion has really been lost.

[FitToBeTied]

I agree that terrain has really gone by the wayside in eventing. There are exceptions of course but by and large the most severe terrain is nothing more than a gentle rolling hill.

I would like to see big open courses that really encourage galloping. Limit the number of combinations/complexes. Change the scoring so that all time differentials off the optimum time count as penalties and, of course, ban watches. Let’s see who really knows what a pace really is.

[Jealoushe]

I like that idea quite a bit. You could penalize each way for time over/under a certain amount. Limit the combinations for sure, especially those that are the same over and over. Add some BIG hills…woods, something to make the terrain more challenging. Hell even a natural creek thats not too wide to jump would be super.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=omare;8166835]
“But we have no proof that the jumps that fall down will change anything.”

I think you could get proof if you tried–comparing the rate of falls in showjumping. How many horses have fallen in the showjumping portion of eventing compared to the xc portion --prorate it by jumping efforts–comapred to the number of rails taken out in such jumping efforts?[/QUOTE]
Not the point.

Once the horses FIGURE OUT that the jumps fall down (and they WILL figure it out) some will probably jump them less carefully.

And that might make them MORE dangerous.
(the rule of unintended consequences.)

You can’t tell that from show jumping statistics.

[Janet]

[QUOTE=JP60;8166787]

It was not till 1953 that the olympics factored in [/QUOTE]
Three Day Eventing has been in the Olympics since 1912

[kinscem]

I haven’t read all 16 pages of comments but somehow I think the recent deadly problems have to do with dressage horses being asked to go hard core xc.
Just think what dressage riders want - perfect footing, perfect obedience, and basically horse not thinking for itself.
XC on the other hand requires a fifth leg and independent thinking on the side of the horse to get its rider out of trouble.
In the past and in the military roots of the sport of eventing - still called military in some parts of the world - horses and riders needed to be able to overcome obstacles that were often a matter of life or death in some battle situation.
Dressage was just means to achieve the result of having a battle ready horse.
Nowadays dressage has such a weight in competitions that it actually takes away from the horse to be able to go and be handy on a difficult modern course.
That plus many modern dressage focused riders do not know how to ride at speed cross country.
I have seen it many times: a horse gets collected and collected and basically forced to jump from standstill, no power left, horse ends up refusing, crashing and definitely shattered mentally

PS: Forgot to mention latest wonderful writing by Jimmy Wofford where he points out that steeplechase riders attack their courses at speeds where no dressage/modern eventing rider would feel comfortable and in short stirrups. I want to add from my personal track experience - steeplechase horses for sure do not get schooled for months at gymnastics and in dressage rings.
Yet they do great over the most difficult obstacles.