WTF Are We Doing?

[Salty]

My old horse would win your bet. He spun me off on XC once, because of a scary noise, and ran back to the start box jumping everything in his path. Including oxers, backwards.

He was also the horse when, turned out with jumps, would make up courses and jump them.

When he was a yearling, he jumped a cattle guard and went exploring in the neighborhood. So he wasn’t some automaton just doing what he’d been trained to do. He trained me, instead, to stay quiet and stay out of his way so that he could jump.

[sherian]

I have had several horses that will jump jumps in the field back and forth for no apparent reason other than their own entertainment, of course I also have horses that sure as hell were going to go around them, and one that would stop, knock em down with her front hoof and then carefully step over. Selective breeding for traits does produce horses that are inclined mentally to do certain jobs not just the physical talents required - hell I had an appendix quarterhorse that I bred to be a hunter that would love nothing more than to cut the sheep when ever he came into the field.
I am all for better course design, better rider education and TD’s that pull people off course sooner rather than later, but I do think that sometimes it’s just an accident and you will never achieve 100% safety for either horses or humans in any aspect of sport or life in general.

[Peggy]

@endlessclimb

For those horses who jump pasture fences, make a 10’ section and then take down the rest. Will he jump it now? Nope.

Again, cut any top level horse loose on XC. Hell, goose him and get him running. If he jumps ANY jump out there, especially a skinny, I’ll give you 50 bucks.

It ain’t happening. It’s conditioning that sends them over, not their own burning desire.

Conditioning and purpose-breeding plays a role. I’ve owned horses from lines that were bred to jump and those that weren’t. The two from purpose jumper lines were lock and load to fences under saddle, and one of those was that way starting with his first jump. I can’t speak to the other one because I didn’t own him when he was started. But the current horse would probably be too lazy to jump if left to his own devices. Left to his own devices, he mostly just walks around but does occasionally get pretty silly for short bursts.

[Marigold]

@endlessclimb

I can not fathom why some people are unable to see the difference in risk assessment in these cases. One is a horse doing things autonomously. The other is a human asking, after conditioning them to trust the human not to over-ask.

I don’t think whether a horse does something autonomously can be the benchmark for whether or not we can ask them to do it. My horse would never autonomously choose to stand for the farrier and get her feet trimmed and her shoes put on. Without training, my horse would never autonomously get on the trailer so I could drive her to the equine clinic for her annual workup. No one has ever told me that I shouldn’t ask her to do that, because without shoes her feet will bruise and because all beings deserved medical care.

The natural argument here is that those things, while not something she would autonomously do, are good for her and therefore okay to train her to do (and to be clear, just because she doesn’t do something autonomously does not means she doesn’t do it happily - because she is trained she self-loads onto the trailer when I ask and falls asleep when you put her in cross ties while the farrier is working). But I would argue that having a job is good for her too (and lord knows it’s good for the long-term state of my stable). And while she’s perfectly nice on the flat, spend more than 10 minutes around her and you’d know she prefers to jump. It’s variety, mentally and physically, and nearly every being on the planet enjoys that. Like most horses, she also really enjoys time spent out of the ring, so hacking but especially cross-country are the best days for her. Would she do it autonomously? I haven’t really tested that theory. But does she do it happily? Absolutely, and that is what matters the most to me.

It comes back to that guiding principle: I owe it to my horse to keep her happy, healthy, and free from distress. Using her muscles and engaging her brain and enjoying variety in her work keeps her happy and healthy. She does her job without distress. If something happens one day and she is injured (on course, in a field, in her stall) in a way that would prevent her from being happy, healthy, or free from distress, I will make the decision I have to make to fulfill my obligation to her in her present moment - the only moment she is aware of. That is the best and really, the only way I know to give her a good life.

[endlessclimb]

The question is less of “should we ask them to do it” and more of “at what level are we asking too much”.

This picture comes to mind. Lots of horses endured this, and over and over again so they weren’t injured doing it. But somehow it’s now considered cruel to ask.

What’s the difference between this, and eventing? Why is one ok, but the other not? Everything they do is for US. It has nothing to do with them, or their true well being. Cut a horse loose at the start gate - he’s going to graze, not go jumping down the track. Horses have no aspiration to jump advanced, or prelim, or even BN! They want food, friends, and a pasture. So it’s up to us to say “no, that level of risk for an endeavor I am subjecting the animal to is too much”.

I think we’re there for advanced level eventing. The risk is too high, and for what?

[Marigold]

@endlessclimb

I think we’re there for advanced level eventing.

A genuine question: what is it that makes you say we are there for advanced level eventing? If you could be more specific than “we are losing too many horses”, I’d appreciate it. (Is it the horses lost to cardiac events? Limb injuries? Rider deaths? You don’t personally know any horses with that level of ability? You think the jumps should fall down? The distance is too far?)

I don’t personally feel that advanced level eventing is too much risk for a horse with the right ability, but I recognize that it is very important to listen to the people who do and address their concerns, which is why I ask for specificity.

[endlessclimb]

I think the jumps should fall down, and without needing hard impact to do so. I also think that some types of jumps/asks should be outright banned, due to limb injuries or potential for issues. If the consequences of a horse reading the jump wrong are going to be catastrophic or very likely to be career-ending, that’s a no for me. Example:

There’s no reason the ditch needs to be that deep, other than for “wow” factor.

That’s just me, personally. I’m sure others have different opinions as to where the “no” point is.

[Jealoushe]

I disagree. Horses DO enjoy XC. When you ride a horse who lives for it you understand the feel they give you, it’s coming from them. Not from us making them do it. There’s an energy from them I can’t explain until you experience it yourself.

It’s not force, especially when you think of all the 15yr olds on hardly broke TBs and ponies who will gladly carry unskilled riders around big courses weekends after weekend happily.

Would you consider putting a horse on a horse trailer also a fair risk to ask of them? Considering road accidents are a huge risk to anyone on the road?

[Jealoushe]

I’d be shocked if this jump has caused a single injury in its what 40 year history?

[Marigold]

@endlessclimb

If the consequences of a horse reading the jump wrong are going to be catastrophic or very likely to be career-ending, that’s a no for me. Example:

Thank you for your answer, and for being specific in your example.

Respectfully, I struggle to understand your point based on this example. That ditch is not massively deep (compared to the ground on the takeoff side, which is how the horse would experience it if something went wrong. The drop elsewhere on that course at the Leaf Pit is substantially bigger, and that is actually meant to be ridden as a drop). The Cottesmore Leap has been on that course for as long as I can remember, and I can’t think of a single “catastrophic” or “very likely to be career-ending” injury that has happened at that fence, across thousands of jumping efforts at this point.

My best takeaway from your example is that if the scariest-looking fences were removed, you would feel more comfortable with eventing. That is a much more amorphous problem to solve than “I am concerned about the number of tables on course because they are statistically more likely to cause rotational falls”. Your example makes me think we have a marketing problem, rather than an issue with horse type or course design or jump technology.

ETA: RE: “jumps falling down and needing hard impacts to do so”, this particular fence is also topped with a significant amount of brush - the solid part of the fence is barely higher than the takeoff point. It is almost impossible for the horse to encounter anything solid while jumping this particular fence, which is a design choice course designers use regularly to improve safety on cross country.

[endlessclimb]

@Jealoushe

It’s not force

I never said it was. I never said the horse didn’t enjoy it, either.

It’s conditioning, and it’s the horse trusting the human to not ask them to do something that will hurt them. Too bad we betray that trust over gigantic solid obstacles.

Putting a horse on a trailer is necessary. Jumping something solid at max height and width is not, when easier or safer alternatives are available.

[endlessclimb]

In a similar jump a horse got trapped down in the ditch, and they had to disassemble the jump to get the horse out. The horse was not fatally injured, at least not in that moment, but got vanned off as a “precaution.”

Can someone else remember when and where that was? It was within the last 2-3 years.

[endlessclimb]

@Marigold

That is a much more amorphous problem to solve than “I am concerned about the number of tables on course because they are statistically more likely to cause rotational falls”.

A lot of tables are maxed, designed poorly, and (to me) ARE some of the scariest jumps on course.

[Jealoushe]

Going to a horse show isn’t a necessity though, and that’s the majority of horse transport (shows, racing, etc).

[Jealoushe]

Most tables are now fitted as frangibles.

I know here in Ontario we have put a lot of funding into making sure events have as many frangibles as possible.

[Jealoushe]

Not trying to pick on your replies but just wanted to share an example; I saw this happen at a hunter show. Horse fell over a 2’6 jump and got tangled in it, and couldn’t get up. Was all tangled in the lattice gate. Took ten minutes to get him up. Had a serious leg injury afterwards. Happens in all horse sport not just Eventing.

[endlessclimb]

I guess I’m not understanding the point of this thread.

If, after all the safety advances implemented, we still have this thread being bumped with needless fatalities, but we don’t want to say “hey maybe this whole thing is a bad idea” - WTF are we doing here, on this thread? If this is acceptable risk to some of you guys and your horses (who trust you, through years of conditioning), then go right on ahead and do it.

[endlessclimb]

Pau 2019 CCI ***** Horse trials - Horse try to jump a wall during cross country

This is the type of conditioning we’re talking about. Years and years of “if I point you at it, go over”. Now, these horses have no clue about an option of refusal and will do absolutely foolish things like try to jump a 10’+ wall. Yes, I know the riders rein is broken - I’m talking about the mentality we create in the horses where “no” is not an option.

[Jealoushe]

Well the thread is what, ten years old?

I started it because nothing was being done, but we’ve come a longggg way since then. There was a lot of “everything’s fine” going on at that time.

This thread to was discuss WHY it as happening and how to prevent it. Learn from things and see what we could do to make our sport better. Hoping for actual data and numbers, research.

Gotta be careful these days screaming at riders to stop their discipline. If you win, yours might be next. After that might be riding horses in general. Then when we can’t ride anymore, what will happen to the horses? Slippery slope.

[Jealoushe]

I don’t think that’s a matter of no not being an option. It’s a matter of a keen horse misreading a fence for a jump. It happens in the hunter and dressage ring too. At home in the field… etc etc.