Do not use jump racing as an example. Horses die at a nauseous rate and the connections shake their heads and say that’s the risks of the game. I loved jump racing. The horses are wonderful and athletic and LOVE their job. But the day there were THREE carcasses stacked in the woods after a sanctioned meet, I was done with it. Sorry to dump on you. I don’t know where the line is between they love it and are good at it and it’s too risky.
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Horses gallop around turn out with terrain in the dark for fun.
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They jump solid fences sometimes too.
Not relevant to this discussion
I can not fathom why some people are unable to see the difference in risk assessment in these cases. One is a horse doing things autonomously. The other is a human asking, after conditioning them to trust the human not to over-ask.
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The point is horses see well in the dark. They are capable of great endurance, running at speed and for some reason many like to jump over things. California’s round was copy book. When Tamie pulled up no one knew why at first. It was not reckless in the context of eventing. If it is reckless for California to do 5* it is probably reckless for Jane Doe and Trigger to do Novice. The first on course horse death I personally knew was at Training, the first human death was at Prelim. I have devoted 40 years to eventing and I am increasingly wondering if the cost/benefit ratio is too high. But it is across the levels. You can’t draw a line and say this is too hard. Novice is as hard for Trigger as 5* for California. But I also live in Amish country. I can promise you California had a wonderful life. Amish horses do not. Is that relevant? It is to me.
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I understand what you’re saying regarding one level being as hard for horse x as another is for y. I don’t think comparing horse lives to miserable horses and using misery as the starting point is the best idea. Yes those horses are miserable, but is that the benchmark? I would hope not.
It’s to the point that I don’t think intentionally jumping horses over solid obstacles of any size is a good idea. Maybe a log, as necessary, on a trail. But to do this, to ask the horses to trust us, when we’re asking them to do something that could damn well kill them… and then ask for more complexity and height to where the jumps are insane when standing next to them… I just don’t feel like a horseman would make that ask of an animal they truly cared deeply for. The ribbons, the accolades, the crossing the finish line after 100 dangerous miles… that’s all for the human.
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And re: the jumping. “Enjoy” is not the word I use. They’re conditioned to do it. If you cut the horse loose, riderless, on that same XC track, he’d go around the jumps, not over.
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So is the ribbon at novice. I’m not sure either. The riders believe they have given the horses the tools to answer the questions. I’m also not sure it is wrong to strive for the difficult. When I was 20 I was very sure about many things, now not so much.
I’ve known horses who jump for fun. That was how one stallion owner learnt that her horse liked to jump, as he took himself over the obstacles, in either direction, when turned out in an arena. Then there are those that refuse to stay in one paddock and jump their way around the farm: horses have curiousity and like to check out what is happening. The Section C Welsh did think he had an incentive, however, to frequently jump out over his stable door: the feed room door got a lock put on. Horses that don’t enjoy jumping don’t go up to the higher levels of Eventing.
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That D•ckhead Harley comes to mind! His videos are hilarious “no Mum, not today Mum, today I identify as a wild springbok!” as he boings over his paddock fences for fun.
His FB page is just that, That D•ckhead Harley (without the censor)
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I’ve got a TB that changes fields quite a bit. At 20 he still goes over the 4’ 6" fence lines. His pasture buddy another TB never does. He also doesn’t get excited when his buddy leaves.
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As other have noted, that’s not at all universal. I had a pony who loved to jump. LOVED to jump. To the point where, if there were jumps in the field that she was turned out in, she would school herself.
I saw it myself, and others reported it to me. She would be grazing, then get bored, pick up a trot and start wandering around the field, looking for things to jump. When she saw something, she’d break into a canter, jump it, drop back to a trot on the other side and start looking for another jump.
One of the times I saw this, there was only one jump in the field - she went back and forth over that one.
Needless to say, she was never retired. I would have loved to have kept her in a field where I could visit her regularly, but it seemed clear that she would be happiest in a program with kids to teach. So we free-leased/gave her to a trusted place where did that until pretty much the end, just dropping down the fence heights as she aged.
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For those horses who jump pasture fences, make a 10’ section and then take down the rest. Will he jump it now? Nope.
Again, cut any top level horse loose on XC. Hell, goose him and get him running. If he jumps ANY jump out there, especially a skinny, I’ll give you 50 bucks.
It ain’t happening. It’s conditioning that sends them over, not their own burning desire.
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Obviously you have never seen the videos where a rider gets dumped and the horse keeps jumping.
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While conveniently forgetting the thousands more times that DOESNT happen. Let’s base our opinion on the 0.01%.
The horse may jump out of the combination, but he isn’t going around jumping everything out there.
The horses do this for US. Not on their own.
Let HH Azur out in a GP ring set at height. Let’s place bets on if she jumps a single thing out there. Let Tsetserleg (sp?) out at Kentucky. Have it roped off, too, so he can’t go anywhere but the track. Let’s bet on if he goes and jumps something or if he starts grazing.
Comeon people. Don’t anthropomorphize this. They jump because WE ASK.
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They also stop, despite us asking.
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I both agree and disagree with this. I think one of the things that’s so interesting about this topic is the acceptability question and the equine physiology. California could’ve been many other species of mammal and survived this absolutely fine - and this is true of many of these fatalities.
My point is that millions of kids each year and millions of athletes sprain, fracture and break limbs. Luckily for humans and many other animals; we heal, recover and carry on; it’s less disruptive than a pregnancy.
Tragically for equines, their physiology; particularly for front limbs, requires their legs to be weight bearing - it’s how blood is pumped around their body, and lowering their heads to eat, or rest, is what clears their lungs and prevents pneumonia. It makes a quick operation and a few weeks in a cast impossible.
If we flip the stats over and imagine a world where horses healed like humans but any human that fell off and broke a leg/wrist/arm or collarbone was killed - would we ban riding? Almost certainly because the risk of death would be crazily high. But horses (thankfully) don’t break that often even when asked to gallop and jump, or pull heavy loads or any of the other crazy things we have bred them to do.
Where I struggle is that given the above, I’m not sure that equates to the cause being a lack of autonomy.
At the point of the injury are they in more pain than any other animal that breaks a limb? Probably not. It’s the long term prognosis of the recovery that makes operating or repairing the crack/break/strain impossible and death the ‘best’ outcome.
So we try and create rules that keep them safe and those rules are almost always going to fail because of the physiology of the horse. And something that we regard as a transient pain for most other species, becomes a hugely more significant event for a horse.
Does that mean we should stop trying? Absolutely not.
Does that means we should ask unfair questions, or push the horse beyond the level they are trained to comfortably compete? Absolutely not.
Does that mean we shouldn’t take the utmost care in conditioning and training? Absolutely not.
But the question of what is acceptable is (to me) so hard and I think that’s where the argument ‘but my horse did that in the field’ comes from, because in many ways it is comparable - although horses are extraordinarily tough in some ways, a fracture or break can actually happen for the most innocuous of reasons and have lethal consequences; it is not necessarily because, as you seem to suggest, they are being ‘forced’ to do something.
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A horse rapped her leg in the wrong spot. An accident like that has almost nothing to do with the activity.
I am 100% for welfare. I am 100% for improving the safety of eventing. But this accident could have happened in any situation doing anything with a solid object. You can argue that it wouldn’t happen if the horse wasn’t competing at the five star level, but this isn’t the typical outcome of hitting a jump. It’s one of those “freak” (to use the controversial term) results. Not unlike if your horse galloped headlong into a fence post or panicked while loading into a trailer or fell on concrete and sustained a fatal injury.
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Haven’t even thought about even liking, much less loving, this sport in forever. You couldn’t pay me to watch. Although in fairness I feel exactly that way about horse racing these days.
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Agree 100%. Horses, when left to their own devices, are not the least bit interested in jumping over fences, nor do they wish to do dressage, moving their weight to their hocks and perform. These are events created by humans to train and show and compete with their horses, though these maneuvers aren’t remotely related to how horses navigate their world. So , naturally, it’s very unsafe given the unnatural tasks being asked of horses. Along another vein, if you want to see your chosen events disappear, and disappear fast, start begging for oversight from outside agencies, which brings in enormou$ liability for promoters and equine venues. The high cost of insurance is the reason why you see those posts in every equine related facility “Equine pursuits are inherently dangerous…” Without this basic assumption/acceptance by “everyone” when they involve themselves with horses the cost of insurance and the risk of liability will prevent any venue from allowing equine activities. So, in a nutshell, be careful what you wish for.
Stallions showing off to their mares? That may include “airs above the ground” as well as all the collected prancing and leg waving. One reason why mares are not as common in Dressage as geldings and stallions. I’ve watched an Andalusian horse spontaneously doing piaffe while it was waiting to pull a fishing boat up a Spanish beach - no human intervention beyond a slack rope to pull on. I was fascinated because at that time I had never seen piaffe in real life and it was magical, a beautiful, shining silver horse dancing on his own, on the beach, beside the blue sea while the men worked on the boat. Human training can only bring out what is inherent in the animal.
Humans do selectively breed horses to make them run faster or collect more or jump higher. TBs run, when at liberty and playing in a group. A hairy cob will trot as fast as most horses canter and that is also evident at liberty, playing in a group, as they continue to trot, more extended and faster. But to be most effective in achieving human ends, the human and horse have to work in partnership. That harmony is a wonderful thing and probably what has kept me fascinated by these wonderful creatures for my entire life.
Hacking through countryside on a horse that is enjoying itself is a lovely thing. OK, how do I know it is enjoying itself and I’m not simply anthropomorphising? Relaxed movement, that lovely rolling blow through its nose that indicates contentment, stopping to stare at the view every now and then, eager to see around corners, offering a spontaneous canter up a grassy track, slowing down when turning back towards home…
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