WTF Are We Doing?

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

When a suspicious death of a pony made front page news on the NY Times there was some discussion of this–the article was from 2012, and the fact George Morris was asked for a quote about the issue is pretty rich in retrospect.

Sudden Death of Show Pony Clouds Image of Elite Pursuit (Published 2012)

If you’ve run out of free articles, here is a shorter summary.

The death of hunter pony Humble is front page on The New York Times -...

However, I am not really sure what the apples to oranges comparison is worth, to be honest, since the thread was started about eventing safety, and how and if it is possible to make the sport safer and still recognizably the sport.

I guess I’ll just throw in that I admit I’ve always felt safer riding dressage, although certainly there have been many terrible injuries in all horse sports of both horses and riders. But I don’t know if that’s backed up by statistics, to be perfectly honest, or if just because of my own highly subjective personal comfort level and skill set as a rider. (My feel for a horse has always been better than my eye and bravery over fences, so I am personally safer doing dressage IMHO, but I don’t have the stats to confirm how much safer it is as a discipline.)

[K_VanOlst]

Threads don’t exist in a vacuum. It may be true that jealoushe has been tracking and collecting safety statistics for years, but it can simultaneously be true that I don’t find her to be a trustworthy narrator. YMMV. You’re welcome to believe her statements. I’d prefer to see actual data.

[fordtraktor]

Horses do die at HJ shows occasionally. There was one euthanized at VHC (or nearby) from EHV1 recently, I got a notification about it from USEF (they quarantined 80 horses in that barn.). I have also known them to die/be euthanized from colic, and I was there when one pulled up in a horse box dead, it had flipped over and hit its head. That was awful. A hoof was sticking out a broken window.

What I haven’t seen is one die on course in the ring, because it happens rarely (I.e. Hickstead). There are also many, many more HJ shows and horses at them, week after week all year. All the same things that can end tragically at home can happen at shows. I would not compare it to Eventing simply based on numbers. It isn’t a fair comparison. Maybe percentages, but not straight numbers.

[Janet]

@Willesdon

I certainly think USEA should be publishing annual reports on safety with supporting data. I have no doubt that the commitment to safety by British Eventing is 100% genuine and that improvements are made, based on evidence. I’m not so certain of the situation in the USA because I read things here …

My understanding is that it is USEF that has the data (from all the injury reports) and WILL NOT share it with USEA. So it is USEF that should be publishing annual reports on safety.

[Willesdon]

@Janet How very unhelpful. I wonder what the reasoning of USEF might be?

[enjoytheride]

Endurance riding has more stringent and frequent vet checks than eventing ever has and it is very easy to get a horse spun at a vet check. Horses have been known to compete for 10,000 miles in their life time. If a horse gets spun at a intro ride it’s likely that it will be sold quickly into a less intensive home because one or two pulls is a strong indicator of a horse that isn’t endurance capable.

[BrownDerby]

Unless the race is held in the UAE, where they quite literally run the horses into the ground. It is appalling and the FEI is useless.

[Highflyer1]

US Equestrian to Begin Tracking Fall Data - Eventing Nation - Three-Day...

I’m not sure what they have done with data in the past.

[Mohan]

Of course but this thread, about how to make eventing safer, that’s been going on for what? Ten years, took a tail spin with Americans saying anecdotes from a Canadian are false and every thing but dressage and H/J is bad. This isn’t really the place for that.

People chiming in they would never event, race, or do endurance. All well and good but it takes away from this thread. I was sick so this thread was my entertainment. This thread isn’t about demonizing eventing or other horse sports. It’s about how to improve eventing.

Now do I think h/j have a comparable level of deaths to eventing? No. I do not. But I’m also not a poster that came here to demonize the OP or eventing.

“Threads don’t happen in a vacuum… blah blah blah. Social media…” okay cool. Ignore it. There should be no tit for tat on this thread especially from Americans challenging what I assume are Canadians speak to the OP that’s Canadian.

If I didn’t know better I’d swear the Barisone thread got boring for people.

[Texarkana]

@Mohan

Of course but this thread, about how to make eventing safer, that’s been going on for what? Ten years, took a tail spin with Americans saying anecdotes from a Canadian are false and every thing but dressage and H/J is bad. This isn’t really the place for that.

People chiming in they would never event, race, or do endurance. All well and good but it takes away from this thread. I was sick so this thread was my entertainment. This thread isn’t about demonizing eventing or other horse sports. It’s about how to improve eventing.

Now do I think h/j have a comparable level of deaths to eventing? No. I do not. But I’m also not a poster that came here to demonize the OP or eventing.

“Threads don’t happen in a vacuum… blah blah blah. Social media…” okay cool. Ignore it. There should be no tit for tat on this thread especially from Americans challenging what I assume are Canadians speak to the OP that’s Canadian.

If I didn’t know better I’d swear the Barisone thread got boring for people.

Well said!

[enjoytheride]

I am talking about endurance in America, specifically answering a previous posters claim that endurance riding is cruel. The reputation of what constitutes “endurance” in the UAE is well known and frequently discussed and a topic for another thread.

[Mohan]

I swear there isn’t enough drama else where, so let’s kick up dust in a thread that had been civil for the most part.

[K_VanOlst]

@Mohan

took a tail spin with Americans saying anecdotes from a Canadian are false

What we said was that jealoushe’s opinion =/= fact. If she has actual facts, she’s welcome to share them. Are you new to discussion boards? Orrrrrr… This has been quite mild compared to many threads I’ve read on CoTH over the last few decades.

[Mohan]

Okay so I took it as her research. In Canada. I mean demand the USEF report the data. Eventing bodies track data, and she took it upon her self to do more. That anecdote wouldn’t have come up if someone didn’t come here speaking about how they would never event etc… cool but why be on this thread full of people trying to do better?

Why take away from that because you don’t like what she posted on the Barisone threads and “was friends” with Lauren Kanarek on social media that hasn’t been active for a while? (Yeah I have had a lot of time to read with health issues.)

We are supposed to believe you don’t drag drama around. You came here to just slag the OP who’s done a lot of work for safety in eventing for horses and people. Leave it alone and let people get back to the more important discussion which is the topic of this thread and not your hurt ego.

[K_VanOlst]

@Mohan

Why take away from that because you don’t like what she posted on the Barisone threads and “was friends” with Lauren Kanarek on social media that hasn’t been active for a while? (Yeah I have had a lot of time to read with health issues.)

We are supposed to believe you don’t drag drama around. You came here to just slag the OP who’s done a lot of work for safety in eventing for horses and people. Leave it alone and let people get back to the more important discussion which is the topic of this thread and not your hurt ego.

First of all, I’ve seen maaaaaaaany posts from Jealoushe, that all contribute to my opinion, not just the ones in the MB threads.

Second, I had been reading this thread for ages (without posting) because I have lots of friends who event - I didn’t feel the need to comment until I got tired of seeing jealoushe making wild assertions without data to back them up - and I wasn’t alone. So no idea what your problem is with me but I’m certainly not letting your opinion change how I post on CoTH, bless your heart. I don’t have a hurt ego about anything - it’s clear I wasn’t alone finding jealoushe’s claims outrageous, seeing as I’m not the only one who has spoken up. Just apparently the one you feel like singling out, which is fine threads frequently stray and return to the topic at hand. Again, that’s not strange. Run along and police someone else’s posting, you certainly won’t be influencing what I do and do not choose to comment on or how I comment.

[Bearx2]

Blockquote

@erinmeri

@Mohan

I don’t understand the way this thread took the turn it did. @Jealoushe has information that has been shared privately and she in turn shared her perceptions here. The disregard for her knowledge and experience shouldn’t be dragged over here because of drama from another thread.

It took me a while to read this entire thread. I applaud all the efforts to improve safety in eventing. I too will choose a general barn or eventing barn before I go to a Hunter barn. That’s my experience and my right as a horse owner. Also the BN hunters have been twisting themselves into pretzels over drugging and having sex with minors more than any other discipline. That’s enough to turn me away.

I love eventing because I’m really a hunter that misses those big outside courses. But I found a home in the community. And it’s fun. I like the challenge that goes beyond being perfect.

ETA: to the person who expressed concern over people choosing eventing because they cannot see a distance…. Well you clearly know nothing about jumping unless someone tells you how many strides you get. You also have never seen, heard of, or experienced jumping in stride.

And unless I am reading it wrong, she said her “evidence” was anecdotal.

Okay, found her first wild assertion:

If you’re fine with lower level Eventing why would you turn riders away who are interested rather than educate them on how to ride safely and make choices as riders? How are we turning a blind eye when this thread alone has been nearly a decade long conversation about Eventing safety? It’s on the forefront of most people who events mind. If you think hunter jumper horses aren’t dying too you’re absolutely in the wrong. I would say more H/J horses die at shows in a year than eventers. You just …

Then this:

But more horses are dying at hunter jumper shows, so why choose Eventing as the one who “asks too much”?

Then this:

Are you suggesting Eventing has a higher injury rate of horses? I would argue that one. Impossible to know without data, but I see many many injured hunters, dressage and possibly the most is WP and barrel racing just anecdotal evidence.

This:

@Rallycairn replying to you both. This information is from sources at the governing bodies. H/J deaths are not publicly reported like Eventing deaths. Majority of the time when a horse dies at a show no one even hears about it. Still happens at events too however thanks to this thread I’ve had many people reach out over the years to tell me about fatalities that weren’t reported publicly. You would have to reach out to your governing body to ask if they would share the numbers.

And here she admits it is ANECDOTAL evidence:

Yes but I clarified it was anecdotal evidence. I absolutely agree depending on the causation of such injuries.

Then claims as fact:

Yes it is a fact known to me. You’re free to gather your own data as you wish. You don’t have to believe me, but I have no reason to make that up. Feel free to accept or reject it.

And so on.

Was called out by multiple people and doubled down…

Maybe I am wrong because I am missing context, but I don’t think so.

Ok if you are going to call @Jealoushe out like this I think it’s only fair to give some context . There have been people on this thread who have questioned the need for upper level eventing in an way that does not seem to take into consideration the strides eventing has made in regards to safety or the fact that many horses event at that level and never has a mishap. These are some of her responses to those comments. I agree that it would be better if these comments were backed up with hard statistical facts but as been stated elsewhere we just don’t have those facts for other horse sports like we do eventing . I am not sure why people feel it’s okay to label eventing as significantly more dangerous then other horse sports but turn around and say we don’t have enough information to make an informed opinions when it comes to the hunters or show jumping. The honest answer is we don’t have enough information to do any sort of meaningful comparison so we might want to stop doing that and look for ways we can improve conditions for horses across disciplines.

[Mohan]

If you call me singling you out because I respond to you well…… I think that demonstrates to many here that you are looking for drama. You may disagree. That’s fine.

Have a good night.

[K_VanOlst]

@Mohan

If you call me singling you out because I respond

I was more referring to the posts where you DIDN’T reply to me but used phrases I had used so were clearly referring to my posts, but you do you have a good one!

[Mohan]

Exactly.

[erinmeri]

@Bearx2

Ok if you are going to call @Jealoushe out like this I think it’s only fair to give some context . There have been people on this thread who have questioned the need for upper level eventing in an way that does not seem to take into consideration the strides eventing has made in regards to safety or the fact that many horses event at that level and never has a mishap. These are some of her responses to those comments. I agree that it would be better if these comments were backed up with hard statistical facts but as been stated elsewhere we just don’t have those facts for other horse sports like we do eventing . I am not sure why people feel it’s okay to label eventing as significantly more dangerous then other horse sports but turn around and say we don’t have enough information to make an informed opinions when it comes to the hunters or show jumping. The honest answer is we don’t have enough information to do any sort of meaningful comparison so we might want to stop doing that and look for ways we can improve conditions for horses across disciplines

As I said above, I do want that data to be shared. It’s long overdue.

I follow this thread because I have found a lot of the information insightful, and because I feel that eventers are often at the forefront of safety development.

I do not and have not condemned eventing. I can appreciate the sport while saying “it’s not for me”.

What I don’t appreciate is someone making claims about a discipline that they do not compete in that imply that we have some huge problem that is being covered up if they are unwilling or unable to back such an assertion with facts. That assertion does not mesh with what I have seen, heard or experienced, so I would like to know how that person came to such a conclusion.

Hopefully the USEF press release above about tracking horse and rider fall data will help… but they need to be more transparent about releasing their findings. As I understand it, they already track horse deaths but that information is not publicly shared.