WTF Are We Doing?

[K_VanOlst]

@erinmeri

Asking someone to back up their wild claims that are unsupported in the media, in threads here, in experience or in the rumor mill is hardly showing a “disregard for her knowledge and experience”. Particularly when that claimant is not even a participant in the discipline she is making wild claims about.

End of.

This.

And my opinions of jealoushe have nothing to do with drama on a single thread, but the entirety of her comments on many many threads as well as her public social media persona. She is not someone whose word I trust. And if she won’t “put up” (evidence), I’m glad she’s at least “shut up” about her nonexistent “facts”. To use a colloquial phrase, as impolite as it may be.

Edited to add: if the governing bodies are collecting this info (and they should be!), they should also be sharing it.

[erinmeri]

@Mohan

I don’t understand the way this thread took the turn it did. @Jealoushe has information that has been shared privately and she in turn shared her perceptions here. The disregard for her knowledge and experience shouldn’t be dragged over here because of drama from another thread.

And unless I am reading it wrong, she said her “evidence” was anecdotal.

Okay, found her first wild assertion:

WTF Are We Doing?

If you’re fine with lower level Eventing why would you turn riders away who are interested rather than educate them on how to ride safely and make choices as riders? How are we turning a blind eye when this thread alone has been nearly a decade long conversation about Eventing safety? It’s on the forefront of most people who events mind. If you think hunter jumper horses aren’t dying too you’re absolutely in the wrong. I would say more H/J horses die at shows in a year than eventers. You just …

Then this:

WTF Are We Doing?

But more horses are dying at hunter jumper shows, so why choose Eventing as the one who “asks too much”?

Then this:

WTF Are We Doing?

Are you suggesting Eventing has a higher injury rate of horses? I would argue that one. Impossible to know without data, but I see many many injured hunters, dressage and possibly the most is WP and barrel racing just anecdotal evidence.

This:

WTF Are We Doing?

@Rallycairn replying to you both. This information is from sources at the governing bodies. H/J deaths are not publicly reported like Eventing deaths. Majority of the time when a horse dies at a show no one even hears about it. Still happens at events too however thanks to this thread I’ve had many people reach out over the years to tell me about fatalities that weren’t reported publicly. You would have to reach out to your governing body to ask if they would share the numbers.

And here she admits it is ANECDOTAL evidence:

WTF Are We Doing?

Yes but I clarified it was anecdotal evidence. I absolutely agree depending on the causation of such injuries.

Then claims as fact:

WTF Are We Doing?

Yes it is a fact known to me. You’re free to gather your own data as you wish. You don’t have to believe me, but I have no reason to make that up. Feel free to accept or reject it.

And so on.

Was called out by multiple people and doubled down…

Maybe I am wrong because I am missing context, but I don’t think so.

[erinmeri]

So, I am just curious. @Jealoushe - do you care to stand behind your assertions? You seem to have gone silent. I, for one, am interested to hear about your “proof”. Correct me if I am wrong, you did admit it was anecdotal, no? Please advise. You seem to have gone silent.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Two fit, healthy people collapsed at the Gold Coast marathon; at least one died.

Sometimes manure just happens.

[Old_Mac_Donald]

Reminds me of the Ride n Tie events. Two riders, one horse. Rider 1 sets out, ties horse at predetermined spot, runs on. Rider 2 runs to spot, rides horse to next spot, gets off, runs on.

[Fiesta01]

Very exciting! Where is the World Championship being held?

[AMWookey]

Maybe she has gone silent bc posters are not only dragging her comments on this thread, but also everything else she does in the world, in an over the top bullying manner.

Whether she has the facts or not, whether you disagree with her or not, she is passionate about the SAFETY and lives of the horses you claim to love. And you all just cannot let it lie.

I get making your point. Some of you went FAR beyond it, and it’s atrocious

[trubandloki]

@AMWookey

I get making your point. Some of you went FAR beyond it, and it’s atrocious

I found it atrocious that someone who insists they are trying to make eventing safer would turn around and say - but these others sports are/appear to be/there is evidence they are/in my opinion they are worse.

That does not help her cause here, which everyone agrees with.

And it is just plain wrong to lie about something like that.
And one of those many variations of the truth about all the deaths in the hunter/jumper world has to be a lie, because what was going on changed so many times.

She is the one hurting her cause, not the rest of us who asked for clarification on a weird point she made.

[millerra]

it took me awhile to figure out my response. I am a scientist (not biological/behavioral) so I understand why science describes conditioning/training in this manner - it helps with experimental design, observation and measurement.

What this description of learning misses is the whole piece of communication that is occurring. I find riding to be a very intimate form of communication and partnership. Training is as much teaching and learning between horse and trainer the rules of communication as it is “when I cluck, you move your feet.”

While I appreciate the need for science to approach animal behavior and training in such a black and white manner, it does not do the level of communication and partnership that occurs between our animal partners (dogs, horses) justice, in my humble, inexpert opinion. I do not know what IAABC is, but I also do not consider the way I have learned to ride my horses or the way my trainers train to be unethical or inhumane. I honestly think my horses like the interaction and playing the game, not because they are avoiding punishment.

[tabula_rashah]

Yep same organization runs both Ride and Tie and Equathon. I have done Ride and Ties also but finding another partner that both rides and runs and can do practices is hard lol

[tabula_rashah]

At the Biltmore Estate in NC

[beowulf]

Horses die in every sport, for stupid human-caused reasons.

We should be shaming our governing bodies for doing very little, not each other. We’re all in the same fish barrel.

[Willesdon]

I certainly think USEA should be publishing annual reports on safety with supporting data. I have no doubt that the commitment to safety by British Eventing is 100% genuine and that improvements are made, based on evidence. I’m not so certain of the situation in the USA because I read things here …

[KellyS]

@AMWookey

Maybe she has gone silent bc posters are not only dragging her comments on this thread, but also everything else she does in the world, in an over the top bullying manner.

Whether she has the facts or not, whether you disagree with her or not, she is passionate about the SAFETY and lives of the horses you claim to love. And you all just cannot let it lie.

I get making your point. Some of you went FAR beyond it, and it’s atrocious

I absolutely agree!

This thread is the one place I know where horse and rider deaths are being tracked, and that’s thanks to @Jealoushe, who is also a long-time contributor to this forum. She, like many of us here, are very passionate about the welfare of the horses competing in all levels of eventing.

I am not on COTH enough to understand the personal issues that apparently exist, but this is often one of the forums where we are able to discuss different points of view without turning it into bullying. Unfortunately, that’s not the case here.

As @AMWookey said, you don’t have to agree with her, but you can state your disagreement and leave it at that without an onslaught of posts calling someone’s character into question.

It’s not a good look for those of you doing it. Give it a rest.

[cutter99]

@KellyS

@AMWookey

Maybe she has gone silent bc posters are not only dragging her comments on this thread, but also everything else she does in the world, in an over the top bullying manner.

Whether she has the facts or not, whether you disagree with her or not, she is passionate about the SAFETY and lives of the horses you claim to love. And you all just cannot let it lie.

I get making your point. Some of you went FAR beyond it, and it’s atrocious

I am not on COTH enough to understand the personal issues that apparently exist, but this is often one of the forums where we are able to discuss different points of view without turning it into bullying. Unfortunately, that’s not the case here.

As @AMWookey said, you don’t have to agree with her, but you can state your disagreement and leave it at that without an onslaught of posts calling someone’s character into question.

It’s not a good look for those of you doing it. Give it a rest.

I have been on this forum long enough to completely understand that if someone’s character is being called into question, there is a very logical reason for it. Especially when more than one person is questioning it.

[erinmeri]

I’m not calling anyone’s character into question, I am merely questioning the validity of an assertion made and asking what facts and data back it.

[endlessclimb]

Same. You can be the nicest person in the world, but if you tell me that you personally have walked the moon, I’m allowed to ask you a few questions. That’s not bullying, it’s calling it like it is.

[trubandloki]

@KellyS

This thread is the one place I know where horse and rider deaths are being tracked

Which everyone thinks is great.

That does not negate that @jealoushe is now claiming things about the hunter world with no facts to back it up.

[Willesdon]

Are the claims unsupported because no data exists? Or does data exist that isn’t published? Does a problem exist that isn’t spoken of? Or is there really no problem? Someone said that USEF does require reports on accidents and fatalities at shows but no one seems to know what happens with it.

[KellyS]

@cutter99

I have been on this forum long enough…

I’ve been on this forum for 22 years, long enough to know when posters’ behavior has crossed the line from inquiring to just being mean.

I always follow this thread and really dislike the tone it has taken.