Yes, but that has more to do with the skyrocketing major medical claims. Prostride et al, shockwave, all the new therapies are big bucks! And eventers are generally insured for lower values than hunters and jumpers so less profit margin.
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Iāve found that at least for short format/national events, by the time the XC controller is notified of questionable riding by a jump judge and they can get in contact with the ground jury/TD, the rider is already finished. Any number of things can happen in the meantime while the decision is being made. I have no idea how that process could be sped up to pull people off in real time though.
I donāt disagreeā¦ but I think there was a big shift during the 90s when I was growing up. Because I was hired by eventers A LOT as a plucky, capable, horse crazy kid. Lots of stall cleaning and conditioning rides. Most were big names and had businesses not unlike today, some were private owners who just needed help.
I suspect economic forces are at play: while it was still expensive then, more people could afford to DIY an upper level event horse. Today most people canāt, so they need to rely on owners and/or a business model (usually both). With a business comes the need for help.
I also resold a lot of racehorses as a kid in the 90s. This was before there were so many options to connect people with track horses, but also before warmbloods had totally taken over. A common request I would receive from track connections was to please not sell their horse to an eventer. Racing people did not want their horses subjected to that. No problem running their horses for a $3,500 tag but didnāt want them eventing. Let that sink in. These days some of the biggest proponents for aftercare in the racing business fund their horsesā placement with eventers. (Sea of Clouds, Icabad Crane, Paddy The Caddy, The Gardeners who have shifted from racing to eventing, etc.)
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Because dressage and hunter judges go through a rigorous training and licensing program, watch the rounds from predetermined locations to get a fair view (and there are multiple judges for the same round for high-stakes classes)? While jump judges are volunteers, often someoneās dad, competitors perhaps sitting the event out, or retired folk? Sometimes people from other disciplines just seeing what itās all about.
Iāve jump judged, and one memorable training session the guy demonstrated different ways of ānot presentingā to a fence using the leftover doughnuts. No joke, it was actually a thorough training session, but itās not ideal, letās say, for subjectively judged rounds.
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The extent of instruction Iāve received to jump judge has been: āyouāre at fence number X, hereās your clipboard.ā Sometimes you get a radio if itās really fancy.
I usually just pray everyone clears my fence because I still donāt entirely know what to do if something goes wrong. 
(Note: Iāve never jump judged at an event that runs higher than training)
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I guess I was spoiled. I volunteered in some capacity for (the late lamented) Groton House and saw a rider or two get pulled up over the years. Control was situated such that a significant portion of the course could be seen. And when I say significant I mean a place where control issues could become apparent. The Ground Jury floated through other major areas of the course, and Area Stewards kept an eye, too. Jump judges would mention concerns if they had any and official eyes would almost immediately be on the competitor.
I have had the honor of being Control for the unrecognized Groton House, and the jump judges are fantastic (looking at you @quietann). They let me and the TD know if there are any concerns. Because the competition is low level educational, most questionable riding is minor resulting in a counseling session at the end. But there would be no hesitation to pull someone up if the ride warranted and any of the jump judges would be capable of doing it.
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This is purely anecdotal, but seconding this. My trainer has connections on the track that always want to send their horses to her because they know itās a safe landing and sheās really not about forcing horses to event if itās not their thing. Everyone gets a good dressage foundation, theyāll learn to put a course together, and they might go XC schooling a few times just to get exposure, but sheās extremely dedicated to finding the right home for every horse that comes through her program regardless of whether they take to eventing.
Our barn is full of people that have fled other (primarily H/J, some dressage) programs. They still do their respective disciplines and my trainer coaches them accordingly. Since I bought my horse four years ago Iāve been saying that I wouldnāt let my former (H/J) trainer touch him with a ten-foot pole because I learned the hard way that not everyone looks after the horses in their care the way that my current trainer does, and I donāt need his talent and especially his brain fried by someone who cares more about showing and appearances than doing justice to the horse.
Again, purely anecdotal, but at least in this area, Iāve seen a lot more cults of personality and bad horsemanship in the barns that arenāt run by professional eventers. There are bad horse people in every corner of the horse world but I do feel that the degree of scrutiny is not equivalent across disciplines (which isnāt me saying stop critiquing eventingāitās my discipline of choice and I love it but Iām not above criticizing it eitherābut instead that we should perhaps apply the same level of critique across the board).
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@Texarkana Have a look on YouTube for the 2022 British Eventing Fence Judging video. Takes you through the basics, though obviously it is BE not USEA and there will be some variables. I donāt think you guys have radios at each fence, for example.
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Thank you! I love jump judging at GH unrecognized events. And I will second, most of the rider issues donāt need someone pulled up, except for having too many refusals, and usually the riders are pretty good about that. A common issue is someone going too slow and the jump judge has to pull them aside so the next, faster rider can get through. The riders sometimes get out in the woods and go off course. Falls are very occasional and usually minor. We all have radios, so we can forewarn people about riders going too fast, too much whip use (very rare) etc. And @frugalannie is great in control! The TD is awesome and will talk to any rider who needs a (mild) scold or a pep talk.
I did jumper ring gate control at another unrecognized event last weekend, and while it was fun, it wasnāt Groton House! (And we also got 2 inches of rain in 2 1/2 hours!)
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Thatās very interesting. I didnāt have connections in that world in the 90s, but I bought my more recent horse from her track trainer directly. Interestingly they held her on the market for quite some time because she looked very much like sheād fit a hunter type but that wasnāt the home they wanted for her. They ultimately sold her to me as a mid-FEI event prospect, and even knocked some off the price when I said I was going to pay for supplemental training rides with my event trainer for the first few months to get her going. (I definitely won every aspect of that bargain - that program cared for their horses spectacularly and produced young stock as well as any performance sport trainer Iāve ever met. That whole experience was the gold standard for horse purchasing).
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I mean, I would be more inclined to say the same thing in 2023. Not bashing hunters, but if you asked me if I wanted to sight unseen board at an eventing barn or a hunter barn, Iād pick the eventing barn hands down. Thatās not to say there arenāt phenomenal hunter barns out there. But eventing barns are more likely to align with my husbandry preferences.
Congrats on you great purchase!
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I jump judged at the recognized Groton House in 2019 and loved how well run it was! I can totally see that level of oversight. Unfortunately, that isnāt the case everywhere, though how nice it would be if it was!
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I donāt understand the way this thread took the turn it did. @Jealoushe has information that has been shared privately and she in turn shared her perceptions here. The disregard for her knowledge and experience shouldnāt be dragged over here because of drama from another thread.
It took me a while to read this entire thread. I applaud all the efforts to improve safety in eventing. I too will choose a general barn or eventing barn before I go to a Hunter barn. Thatās my experience and my right as a horse owner. Also the BN hunters have been twisting themselves into pretzels over drugging and having sex with minors more than any other discipline. Thatās enough to turn me away.
I love eventing because Iām really a hunter that misses those big outside courses. But I found a home in the community. And itās fun. I like the challenge that goes beyond being perfect.
ETA: to the person who expressed concern over people choosing eventing because they cannot see a distanceā¦. Well you clearly know nothing about jumping unless someone tells you how many strides you get. You also have never seen, heard of, or experienced jumping in stride.
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Chiming in here from a behavioral science perspective - there are two major forms of learning (āconditioningā): operant conditioning, and classical conditioning.
Classical conditioning is learning by association. The typical example is Pavlovās dog experiment - ring the bell, feed the dogs. Ring the bell, feed the dogsā¦ Ring the bell, the dogs salivate because they associate the bell with the arrival of food. In this context, the food is not delivered contingent on any behavior performed by the learner.
Operant conditioning is learning by consequence. There are four āquadrants;ā positive and negative reinforcement, positive and negative punishment. Reinforcement increases the occurrence of a behavior; punishment decreases the occurrence of a behavior.
Almost all of conventional horse training utilizes negative reinforcement, with some portion of positive punishment. (For the curious, contrast this with the humane hierarchy of IAABC, which is what I personally hold as my ethical touchstone.) Personally, the understanding that most conventional horse training relies on relief from aversives as the primary form of conditioning is also something that should be considered. It is possible to have animals affirmatively āopt-inā to experiences via āconsent behaviorsā or āstart button behaviors,ā but these are never utilized in negative reinforcement training contingenciesā¦ Because no learner would choose to opt-in to a system that is aversive to them by design.
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Were you at Scarlet?!
Yes, in the afternoon.
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Thank you for volunteering (as usual) - next time you go hit me up, I usually do the afternoon shift. I had a pre-existing arrangement I couldnāt move around so missed this year. I heard it was quite wet - a family member of mine was there volunteering as well and got properly drenched. You guys were superstars to keep the show going on!!
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There are some really good informational videos! I think theyāre on the eventingvolunteers.com site. But very generally if something goes wrong, tell control that there has been a fall of horse or fall of rider at fence x, then take your radio and go over to the horse and rider and assess the situation and tell them what you need-- medic, vet, fence repair, TD. They should talk you through anything else that needs to be done before help gets there, and should take charge of stopping horses still on course, time, etc.
Saw this on the internet and it resonated with me so I thought I would share it with all of the COTH peeps.
A fact is information minus emotion
An opinion is information plus experience
Ignorance is an opinion lacking information
And, stupidity is an opinion that ignores a fact. Kyle Creek AKA the Captain.
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I guess I missed the part where any commentary on @Jealousheās claims has anything to do with ādramaā on another thread. Mine certainly doesnāt.
It is my understanding that Jealoushe is an eventer, I believe in Canada. I am a H/J. I find her claim about the supposed rampant deaths in my sport to be jaw-dropping, as they are not congruent with what I know to be true based on my knowledge and experience, nor anything I have seen, heard nor read in approximately 39 years in and out of this sport.
To be clear, I think that governing bodies should be more transparent with information about mortality and morbidity in all disciplines of horse sport. That said, the claims made are pretty outrageous.
Asking someone to back up their wild claims that are unsupported in the media, in threads here, in experience or in the rumor mill is hardly showing a ādisregard for her knowledge and experienceā. Particularly when that claimant is not even a participant in the discipline she is making wild claims about.
End of.
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