WTF Are We Doing?

[fivestrideline]

@tbchick84

. If a camera or sensor showed the horse had simply pushed off the fence after it had cleared the obstacle, why should it be penalized? With all the blue tooth technology out there, I would think this wouldn’t be such a big ask.

Even if we had the tech at reasonable prices - who gets to decide the horse “simply pushed off” the obstacle vs was dangerous in their impact? The line between sliding over a fence and a crash is razor thin. I don’t think cameras can determine what might have happened if the fence wasn’t pinned - and then we are left with more subjective judgement calls for the ground jury or whoever.

I’m not saying that cameras on fences is a bad idea - I’m just pointing out that getting the camera there is barely the tip of the iceberg if we are going to start assigning different values to triggering a pin. I don’t have an alternative, I just think there is more to it!

[skydy]

Don’t they already have video of the frangible fences?

[PrairieRose]

I agree with tbchick 100%. We already have the ability to review frangible penalties and remove them but I don’t think it’s possible to do a thorough review in many cases because there isn’t good video at the correct angle. I do think it’s possible to tell when triggering a frangible likely prevented a fall. There will always be cases where a horse hangs a leg and manages a miraculous save, but if the pin goes you’d have to err on the side of penalties. Hitting a fence on the way up, above the knees, hanging a leg, chesting the fence, etc all are likely to cause falls (and sometimes still do even when the pin goes). Brushing the fence with the lower legs, esp the backlegs, not so much. Basically - if it looks hairy and the pin goes there should probably be penalties. I think the ground jury is very capable of making that kind of call.

[PrairieRose]

I don’t think we do necessarily, though if someone knows otherwise pls correct me. I remember a case last year at Kentucky in the 4*S where a horse triggered a frangible at an angled table. Total gallop fence, he took it right out of stride, barely brushed it and it went. Rider contested and the officials asked if they could find anyone with video of it to review. No one did so the penalties stood. Cost her the win IIRC.

[skydy]

I was thinking more of the 5*s like Badminton and Burghley.

I thought I heard the commentators mentioning it during Badminton this year. “They will go back and look at the angle to see if the horse cleared the obstacle” or words to that effect.

[Willesdon]

The Ground Jury at FEI events will habitually split their time between someone out and about watching the course and others sitting watching the livestream. If there is any doubt, a decision generally goes in favour of the rider. As a highly experienced Fence Judge, working in a team of two or three equally experienced FJ, having the Ground Jury remove a penalty that we applied can be very annoying.

[Willesdon]

Frangibles are now part of the sport. This rider, this time, felt the penalties were unfair. How did she judge, in the heat of the moment, galloping over fence? At least the rule is clear: pin goes, penalties applied. Had the horse been saved from a serious fall because the pin went and the fence collapsed, I doubt she would have challenged the penalty. Personally, I dislike applying penalties to a safety device but, as I explained some where up thread, the penalties are there to stop the riders going “Yeehaw!!! I’ll fly this one, and make up time, because it will just fall if I get it wrong”. That attitude makes for dangerous riding.

[Libby2563]

You may be thinking of skinnies and corners. They have iPads on tripods (what I saw at Fair Hill) or similar cameras set up directly in line with jumps whose flags are likely to be knocked, so they can review whether the shoulders made it through. I don’t think there are cameras specifically monitoring frangibles? You would need them at a lot more angles and then unless the horse literally didn’t touch the jump at all someone would still have to decide if it was a hard enough hit. Not impossible but I don’t think it’s currently being done.

[Mack_the_Knife]

There is a new group (company? Concern?) here in the mid-Atlantic called Equireels. Have seen them at several of the events I have officiated at recently and them video every horse, every fence. High quality video, I’ve been impressed with what I have seen, also apparently have the ability to review instantly or pretty close to it for officials to rake a look at.

Also, with regard to 5*s, unless the rule has changed, closed circuit tv is a requirement.

[enjoytheride]

While an excellent idea, I don’t think it’s economically feasible for most shows.

[Mack_the_Knife]

I don’t think there a fee, riders can buy their videos for a little over $100. They just videoed the June War Horse event at the Carolina Horse Park, which is a schooling show.

[Willesdon]

Equireels are present at probably the majority of Events in the UK. They know what they are doing, place digital cameras at every fence and then create a complete circuit for each rider. And they are a reasonable price. Extremely useful when there is a dispute about a fence. I think they are originally an Australian company.

Edited for a correction. The company is based in Carlow, Ireland and it is now an official partner with British Eventing.

[Mack_the_Knife]

They have been very well received here, and the fact that they would come out to a schooling show, albeit a first class schooling show, speaks well for them.

[AskMyAccountant.17]

@Willesdon

vents will habitually split their time between someone out and about watching the course and others sitting watching the livestream. If there is any doubt, a decision generally goes in favour of the rider. As a highly experienced Fence Judge, working in a team of two or three equa

Equireel was also at Virginia, and in the rider meeting they told us that all FEI fences would have video footage (to indicate that if we had appeals, the videos would be available)

I assume, since Equireel was filjming all divisions, the national levels could have the same opportunity.

[initiate1987]

Decent article from NPR interviewing Jon Holling. I can’t imagine what the social media comments are going to look like with the public though…

Horse sports are a leading cause of traumatic brain injuries. Can they be...

[Jealoushe]

This is super interesting especially the air jacket info.

https://res.cloudinary.com/britisheventing/raw/upload/v1712921149/files/2024-04/BE%202023%20Season%20Report.pdf#page22

[betonbill]

Has there been much discussion about the fact that the fence was not frangible? Or that it should have been. Suggestions for improvement for that fence or that type of fence that evidently has been used multiple times without problem? I’m mainly talking about over in the UK, since the incident happened there and over an established venue.

[FrittSkritt]

Very interesting. Basically equal rate of injury severity across the board whether you or not you wore an air jacket…

[enjoytheride]

That fence has been jumped for several years hundreds of times and there has never been an issue at it.

[Jealoushe]

Right, they basically concluded a small percentage less injuries without one. But said it could be because of the level those not wearing them are falling at.

The fence and fall data is fascinating too. This is a really useful report.