WTF Are We Doing?

[ThreeTerriers]

I appreciate you mentioning this because I was quite confused! I knew they’re already using cameras so I was surprised it hadn’t come up yet but you’re right, so far they’re not focused on questions over frangibles.

At Kentucky this year they had iPads set up in front of a number of jumps, particularly for the Le Chameau Park (coffin) questions, but now that I think about it, this was only for the skinnies and corners to sort out any disputes over flag penalties. They’re the result of Tamie Smith contesting flag penalties the year prior (so says Kyle Carter).

At the time I was wondering a number of things about the iPads - what happens when they need charged, what if they run out of storage (constantly recording, no stopping in between riders), how do they get enough devices, etc. I suppose somehow they figured it out though and the videos definitely served their purpose. I’m surprised that they didn’t have them at frangible fences too but again they were only prompted by flag disputes.

Based on my previous questions, I don’t understand how they could get enough devices to monitor pretty much every jump on course… but maybe it could be done? Point here being that videos of jumps ARE currently being used and it is definitely within the realm of possibility for similar (more financially friendly) devices to be used for frangibles.

[Willesdon]

The FEI flag rule is subjective and difficult to apply. At Bramham International 4* this weekend, many of the penalties applied by the fence judges (who were at the fence) have been removed by the ground jury (who weren’t at the fence). It is going to be an issue at the Olympics, where the IOC and TV companies want immediate results without lengthy appeals. For several years there have been various attempts to film fences where flags are likely to be an issue - fence judges please bring your own tablet, fence judges please use your mobile phones, the show has provided a tablet so please film every horse, professional videographer may we see your footage… There are plans afoot to just penalize any flag falling, regardless of where the shoulders, hips and legs go, but that will require testing and some serious rethinking about fence and course design.

Much as I personally dislike penalties for frangibles (because they are a safety device and xc isn’t show jumping), at least the rule is unambiguous: when a clip or pin goes the penalties are applied. It is simply a part of modern Eventing. It takes a good deal of force to break a clip or pin so a penalized pair hit a fence pretty hard. Would they have fallen? Who knows. Was it safer for the horse? Research indicates yes, definitely. Was it unfortunate for a competitive rider? Yes, but it is a sport and sh!t happens. Is the present situation perfect? Absolutely not, but, at the same time, absolutely everyone wants safer xc.

[SolarFlare]

@Willesdon

Much as I personally dislike penalties for frangibles (because they are a safety device and xc isn’t show jumping), at least the rule is unambiguous: when a clip or pin goes the penalties are applied.

I’ve seen a frangible penalty removed at an FEI event. I was standing watching riders go through the water complex, and the jump in had clips. Several riders hit the jump pretty hard without activating the clips (the direction the force was applied wasn’t what was needed to activate), and then finally one rider went through and skimmed over the fence and the clips activated.

The jump and clip were inspected and it was discovered that the previous hits to the fence had deformed the clip, and so this rider’s relatively light hit had finally caused the clip to let go. The penalties were removed and the clip replaced.

I don’t think there was video taken, but there were quite a few witnesses at the fence, and I think even the TD was there when this all happened.

[DownYonder]

I can definitely see that happening - i.e., a pin developing microfractures or being displaced ever so slightly every time the jump is touched, until it finally gives way from the stress. I’m not sure what the solution would be though. Are pins replaced before every competition?

[Jealoushe]

Michael Jung would disagree about the pin penalties being unambiguous. He lost his gold medal with a pin falling three strides after he barely touched a fence

[Janet]

@DownYonder

I can definitely see that happening - i.e., a pin developing microfractures or being displaced ever so slightly every time the jump is touched, until it finally gives way from the stress. I’m not sure what the solution would be though. Are pins replaced before every competition?

At our 2023 TD continuing education I was told that, at the Tokyo Olympics, all the MIMS clips were replaced for EVERY RIDER.
But that is not practical at most competitions.

[punchy]

@Jealoushe

Michael Jung would disagree about the pin penalties being unambiguous. He lost his gold medal with a pin falling three strides after he barely touched a fence

Really? Last time I checked xc is before stadium. I don’t therefore recall MJ losing his gold medal when he activated a frangible device. Get over it already.

[Jealoushe]

aren’t you a ray of sunshine lol What exactly is there for me to “get over”. It was a statement on a discussion board, it’s not that deep.

That being said without that pin he was the winner. It was a bad day for sport. You can disagree if you feel differently

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

100% @Jealoushe–what you are saying is so relevant. The more sensitive the frangible the device (I would assume), the greater the safety, but also the higher the probability of a pin being triggered by a touch that normally wouldn’t result in penalties for the rider. It was very unusual for MJ to complain about anything.

[Willesdon]

OK, so I didn’t talk about the cumulative effect of multiple horses knocking a fence before one finally breaks the pin or clip. It is definitely a big reason why, personally, I dislike penalizing frangible fences. In reality, there is nothing to be done because a horse hitting the fence and the pin staying put is not penalized but a broken pin is. In reality, fence judges have to check constantly and assess, by eye, if the pin has bent or not and then, to be fair to riders, radio in for replacement. Frangible pins need to be changed out by the course repair team resulting in long holds in the competition. The Mims Clips, alternative frangible technology that is appropriate for some fences but not other types, are an improvement because they have a flange that can move and so can indicate cumulative deformation. They can be replaced by the fence judges as well as the course repair team resulting in fewer holds on the course. Clips also require constant visual checks, generally every few horses and certainly every time the fence has been knocked hard. The cost of frangible technology is $$$ per piece. British Eventing loans them to event organizers as certain types of fences must always be pinned under BE rules. Until such time as someone works out how to produce a self-measuring, self-indicating, infallible frangible, we will remain in this sadly ambiguous situation. Did the previous nine horses tapping the fence cause the frangible to go with the tenth tap or not?

[punchy]

Anyone familiar with your posts knows that you trot out the MJ-Tokyo gold medal-frangible pin complaint whenever frangible technology is discussed. And I do disagree with you, which is why I expressed my disagreement on this, a discussion board.

[endlessclimb]

I’m not really sure why you’re being aggressive about this. I’m the first to say tough cookies, but that frangible activation was BS and without it he was the winner. So it doesn’t matter if XC comes first or last, it was the deciding factor. It doesn’t matter if you think the frangible activation was BS or not, it was still the deciding factor.

Calm down.

[punchy]

I disagree with the characterization that MJ lost the gold medal. Because he didn’t have to walk in that stadium ring last, with all the pressure that comes with that. So there’s no way to say that he would have won. You could say about a lot of riders that they would have won but for xyz, but I don’t believe in doing that. So I’m calling out something that I think is BS. And I’m not excited about it, I’m just saying I disagree.

[FitToBeTied]

@Willesdon

It is definitely a big reason why, personally, I dislike penalizing frangible fences.

Respectively, I’ll disagree. I think the penalty should be higher than 11 points. After all that technology may have saved yours or your horses life.I think at a minimum it should be a 20. I also think if you activate more than one it should be a DQ.

[Jealoushe]

I don’t really understand your hostility over me having an opinion on something and commenting about it on a discussion board. Am I only supposed to care about something once and never bring it up again? I can’t even remember another time I mentioned it other than right after it happened so I’m a bit impressed you remember my posting history better than I do.

Anyways I’m not hot headed over it, it wasn’t my medal to potentially lose. It’s just a good example of how pins aren’t as cut as dry black/white as people say they are.

I fully support frangibles and that’s the way the cards played out with the way the rules are written. I understand why they had to award the points but it doesn’t mean I can’t be bothered by it.

[Marigold]

@punchy

Really? Last time I checked xc is before stadium. I don’t therefore recall MJ losing his gold medal when he activated a frangible device. Get over it already.

This is an odd response. I wouldn’t be an MJ superfan like @Jealoushe (though certainly I think he’s an exceptional rider) but I don’t blame anyone for not “getting over” the fact that we didn’t even see the moment that lost the gold. And it did lose him the gold - just because show jumping is after cross country doesn’t change the fact that without the pin, he would have been Olympic champion (yes, yes, jumping under pressure, but of all riders out there he’s certainly proved he is capable of doing that). The moment should have been shown on the broadcast.

To @Janet’s point, I do know that the pins were changed after each rider in Tokyo, so at least it was only his impact alone that dropped it. But the fact that we’ve never seen it tells me it looked odd, and it bothers me even now that was not something that the sport owned up to. Oh well, guess I’m not over it.

A discussion not for this thread, perhaps.

[Jump314]

@ThreeTerriers

At the time I was wondering a number of things about the iPads - what happens when they need charged, what if they run out of storage (constantly recording, no stopping in between riders), how do they get enough devices, etc.

I volunteered taking videos at skinnies last year at Kentucky. I was provided with an iPad. We did not constantly record, we hit record when we saw the rider coming in the distance then hit stop after they jumped the fence. This didn’t fill up the storage. We had portable batteries to recharge the iPad when it got low.

[Dr_Doolittle]

I did this at Loch Moy last year (at their inaugural 4*) - they told me to use my iPhone and video the horse and rider on approach and as they went through the flags; if they were completely clear with no issues, I just deleted the footage. (I stood a reasonable distance away, and positioned myself so as to be able to see the horse and rider clearly come through the flags as they rode towards me.)

[Blugal]

Was this your sole job? i.e. you only video’d, you were not also the fence judge?

I can see such big issues with this approach - for sure I would screw it up. Push the video button twice and not record; phone battery dies; delete the wrong recording; etc. etc. And what if it rains? I don’t have a waterproof camera case.

[Willesdon]

@Blugal … And volunteers are very hard to find.