WTF Are We Doing?

[Gnep]

I admire LAZ and Bluegal for their donations and continuing efforts. But it is Don Quichote.
Last week or so, MJ won in one day around 400.000. I did not hear him saying, 10% of it goes to safety research.
Each year organizers are able to raise millions, world wide, as price money. How much is a nicely decked out Range Rover, 60k?

But no governing body is able to raise the money to design and built saver jumps, really?
If just 10% of the price money raised world wide, would go to a safety fund, that has just one purpose design safer jumps, we would not just read 6 or 10 year old studies, we would have the jumps in the field.

It is not coming from the top.

[Eventer13]

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;8663960]
If you ask me, there are not just false ground lines for days on this fence (the shadows, the orange hanging flowers are UNDER the base of the fence), but there is also a problem with multiple ground lines with the extra basked of flowers in front of the fence in the center. Additionally, the rounded ‘lip’ of the fence on the front extends beyond the base. This is in no way a table I’ve seen many times, I’ve never seen a table designed like this except at JF. [/QUOTE]

DC, you bring up some good points with this… I had not seen the fence. I see no reason for any fence to have a false groundline (to me, that is just tricking the horse, not testing riding ability). The top is also quite flat. Maybe that is just the way the picture was taken, but I thought tables were all supposed to have some sort of upward slope so the horse could better assess the width.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Divine Comedy;8663960]
I’m pretty flabbergasted that everyone keeps saying this is ‘just’ a table. Has anyone actually seen the photo of the fence? Practical Horseman posted a good view of the fence on the FB page, found here.

If you ask me, there are not just false ground lines for days on this fence (the shadows, the orange hanging flowers are UNDER the base of the fence), but there is also a problem with multiple ground lines with the extra basked of flowers in front of the fence in the center. Additionally, the rounded ‘lip’ of the fence on the front extends beyond the base. This is in no way a table I’ve seen many times, I’ve never seen a table designed like this except at JF.

On the other hand, this table has been on the course at least since 2011, when I myself jumped the 2* version of it. And my horse, who backs off nothing except water, clearly couldn’t figure out where to jump it so took off a stride early and cleared it by a mile. I distinctly remember it because of my horse’s indecision. So basically, hundreds of horses have jumped these tables at JF for years with no problem.

But in retrospect, there are definitely some major alarm bells for me when looking at that fence.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly why you won’t see me ever go above Intermediate. I just don’t have the faith in being able to deliver 100%, 100% of the time – I don’t see the reason for groundless tables like this - why on earth does anyone think a hollowed/groundless table or ascending oxer-type fence is necessary? One mistake is all it takes in these situations.

I don’t like the airy but solid fences like that, that are deceptive and all too common place in training+ these days. An airy fence like what you saw during the LF days? Fine - hanging log, that type? OK. But not, IMHO, a fence that has an airy or hollowed out underside that is actually a solid table.

I would take a rampy table any day over a table that has an airy profile, lidded front and lack of a groundline like above.

I just personally wonder how much these course designers know about horse eyesight. We KNOW horses have very poor depth perception. We know their adjustment period to light/dark and capability of detecting shadows in bright settings and distinguishing depth is very poor. We know that they have a hard time judging distance especially up close - why on earth do we put fences without readable and easily detected groundlines?

[IFG]

OK, so I have never competed at this level, but I thought that these fences needed to be ramped. Am I wrong on that?

[flyingchange]

Did the horse try to push off this table and got a shoe caught in the seam between two wood panels? I really and truly hope that that is not the case.

Condolences to Phillipa’s family. Especially her toddler daughter.

It’s one thing for a child to be left behind because the parent had no choice - ie, military service. But to be left behind in the name of a sport. I dunno. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=kcrubin;8663686]
Many years ago (1990’s) there was a death at a training level table in Pa. It could have even been at an unrecognized event, I don’t remember? Afterwards tables were not level, they were ascending - for a few years. That style went by the wayside at some point. It seemed that back then, (before corners and skinnies and vests), a study had shown that flat tables caused the most serious accidents. Does anyone else remember that and know why they went back to flat tables?[/QUOTE]

I have the same question.

[snowrider]

[QUOTE=kcrubin;8663686]
Many years ago (1990’s) there was a death at a training level table in Pa. It could have even been at an unrecognized event, I don’t remember? Afterwards tables were not level, they were ascending - for a few years. That style went by the wayside at some point. It seemed that back then, (before corners and skinnies and vests), a study had shown that flat tables caused the most serious accidents. Does anyone else remember that and know why they went back to flat tables?[/QUOTE]

I remember that study. That is more what I’m talking about than collapsible jumps. If the top of the table were shaped so that a large to heavy object hitting it at speed was flipped to one side or another. I would compare it to a rearing horse going straight up and over vs going up and falling sideways. The latter is much less likely to seriously injure the rider. I don’t know if this work has been done, excuse me if it has. If not it should be possible to at least try it. Modeling is a sideline for me and I’m not good enough to create one to look at horses but tons of people are.

I do know that if I were riding around over solid obstacles, I don’t anymore due to age, I’d not use a “sticky” saddle with blocks that lock you in place. I do not want to stay one with the horse during a fall. Very dangerous, imho.

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8663979]
I admire LAZ and Bluegal for their donations and continuing efforts. But it is Don Quichote.
Last week or so, MJ won in one day around 400.000. I did not hear him saying, 10% of it goes to safety research.
Each year organizers are able to raise millions, world wide, as price money. How much is a nicely decked out Range Rover, 60k?

But no governing body is able to raise the money to design and built saver jumps, really?
If just 10% of the price money raised world wide, would go to a safety fund, that has just one purpose design safer jumps, we would not just read 6 or 10 year old studies, we would have the jumps in the field.

It is not coming from the top.[/QUOTE]

Gnep–it’s got to start somewhere, and Ms. Mars donated $25,000 to this study. I would like other people involved in making their living the sport to be more involved in keeping it healthy, progressive, challenging but educational and as safe as hurdling along on a 1200 pound animal without a rollcage can be.

But but the fact that others don’t step up will not keep me from doing my best to encourage others to do their best rather than wailing, blaming and gnashing their teeth. I hope that if more people get behind supporting studies such as these it will become more the norm than not.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8664010]
Gnep–it’s got to start somewhere, and Ms. Mars donated $25,000 to this study. I would like other people involved in making their living the sport to be more involved in keeping it healthy, progressive, challenging but educational and as safe as hurdling along on a 1200 pound animal without a rollcage can be.

But but the fact that others don’t step up will not keep me from doing my best to encourage others to do their best rather than wailing, blaming and gnashing their teeth. I hope that if more people get behind supporting studies such as these it will become more the norm than not.[/QUOTE]

The other issue is with implementation. Once there are results on what makes a jump safer, that information needs to be incorporated into the regulations for jumps on XC, and the TDs need to enforce the regulations. We face these issues in health care all the time. We have evidence for the most cost-effective interventions, but getting doctors to adopt them, and the public to accept them is not always easy. Just look at vaccines as an example.

[vineyridge]

To my eye, the photo of the table fence shows a jump with a very ramped surface. The blue flower pot just adds to the ramp. What that fence ended up looking like, at least to my eye, was a strange kind of bank, and, I would say, it invited the horses to try and bank it.

Which does bring up a question. Horses need to know what kind of fences they are jumping just as much as the rider does. Does modern course design keep the different fence designs and the questions they ask starkly clear in the horse’s mind?

Maybe some research on horses free jumping various kinds of fence is called for.

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8664032]
To my eye, the photo of the table fence shows a jump with a very ramped surface. The blue flower pot just adds to the ramp. What that fence ended up looking like, at least to my eye, was a strange kind of bank, and, I would say, it invited the horses to try and bank it.

Which does bring up a question. Horses need to know what kind of fences they are jumping just as much as the rider does. Does modern course design keep the different fence designs and the questions they ask starkly clear in the horse’s mind?[/QUOTE]

Quite honestly, I see nothing wrong with this fence. It has a rounded edge, there is a mulch patch out front in center to give a ground line. It’s an advanced level fence, one that for an advanced horse should be a let up fence. The horse made a mistake. Now what needs to happen is that a rider or horse doesn’t get killed for making a mistake over what should be an easily negotiated fence.

[snowrider]

[QUOTE=IFG;8664031]
The other issue is with implementation. Once there are results on what makes a jump safer, that information needs to be incorporated into the regulations for jumps on XC, and the TDs need to enforce the regulations. We face these issues in health care all the time. We have evidence for the most cost-effective interventions, but getting doctors to adopt them, and the public to accept them is not always easy. Just look at vaccines as an example.[/QUOTE]

And there will always be an element of luck: the horse lands a few inches one way or the other and it makes all the difference. Mary King had that horrific rotational fall at the Euro Championships and is still competing. And Coral Keen at Boekelo, that was a very scary fall, she credits her vest with saving her life and I know I was impressed.

[Beam_Me_Up]

I hate the “hollow” tables like that too, but they are pretty much at all levels now.

To address the “obviously courses need to be less technical statement:”

That makes sense, to those entering the conversation in recent years, but it’s so difficult to sort out all the unintended consequences, like responses to changes in the sport in terms of horse selection, training program, competition schedule.

For instance, in the early/mid 90s, as courses were getting more technical, it was “obvious” at the time that this was a safety measure. There was a lot of worry about sloppy/fast/seat-of-the-pants riding, and the idea that driving by a skinny was safer than a crash, and would motivate people to train their horses at home and then balance them on course held a lot of appeal. (And arguably worked to some degree–it’s been decades since there have been many x-c hooligans about–that issue with eventing is largely gone.)

Today, in hindsight, that sounds like crack smoking. But at the time it made sense.

If the rest of this season’s courses are much less technical than expected, I do think we will reduce our risk of accidents. But if in the long term this means people respond by (spending more time schooling dressage, going faster to avoid time penalties, picking less careful horses, whatever) it gets so hard to predict the net effect in a decade.

I’m not saying there’s nothing we can do, just that it can be so hard to foresee the impact of changes longer term.

[JER]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8664010]
as safe as hurdling along on a 1200 pound animal without a rollcage can be.[/QUOTE]

The XC best-equivalent of a roll cage is the EXO. Which the riders and eventing community did not embrace and still have not embraced.

This is the only device to date that a ride can wear to decrease their odds of dying of blunt force trauma or crush injuries to the chest.

[fordtraktor]

Beam Me Up – You still see so many eventers who say they don’t need to see a distance. Have a good canter and they are fine. It is the horse’s job.

I don’t know any show jumpers who think that. None. I don’t really think all that many upper level eventers think it. I am not sure why it is such a thing still for the rest to even admit it is desirable.

And it is the #1 reason why I don’t want to event at upper levels. My eye for distance isn’t good enough to get my horse there right all the time like Michael Jung does, and I know it. And I don’t want to be statistic or a post on Eventing Nation.

Lower levels, sure. You can jump 3’ from about anywhere on a scopey horse, and mine is. It is still better to jump 3’ from a good distance and I try to do that!

I am by no means blaming the rider here, let me be clear. It sounds like the horse made this error.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8664010]
Gnep–it’s got to start somewhere, and Ms. Mars donated $25,000 to this study. I would like other people involved in making their living the sport to be more involved in keeping it healthy, progressive, challenging but educational and as safe as hurdling along on a 1200 pound animal without a rollcage can be.

But but the fact that others don’t step up will not keep me from doing my best to encourage others to do their best rather than wailing, blaming and gnashing their teeth. I hope that if more people get behind supporting studies such as these it will become more the norm than not.[/QUOTE]

I admire your endurance in that matter.
I do not think that the mindset in the organization, from the national to the international has it as a top priority. If it were the sport would have the jumps and the mandatory safety equipment to make a crash survivable.
I think it is unacceptable in a world were a F1 driver can flip and flop over and hit a concrete wall with over 200 miles an hour and than just walks away, a little shaken, not stirred and not on the rocks and eventing is basically still doing the same ol’ same ol’.
If top level motor sports has an accident with serious injuries, they turn every stone over to prevent that from happening again. If they have a fatality they question the whole safety system, find the mistake in it and do what ever is possible to fix it.
They understand the nature of the beast, accidents will happen, but serious injuries and fatalities are not acceptable.
They improve the safety of their racetracks and the safety equipment of their drivers continuously and it is done from the top.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=JER;8664107]
The XC best-equivalent of a roll cage is the EXO. Which the riders and eventing community did not embrace and still have not embraced.

This is the only device to date that a ride can wear to decrease their odds of dying of blunt force trauma or crush injuries to the chest.[/QUOTE]
Correct. I tested it and I can tell you it holds 1200 with ease.

[Ready_To_Riot]

Thanks JER!! I had no idea that vest existed! It’s not “in vogue”. It only comes in 1 color, but I bet if more people got interested in it, then they would make more color options! It’s got a steep price tag, but it’s less expensive than your casket. I need a new best anyway. Definitely going to be looking at this one and the studies gone along with it.

Gnep, I’m sorry you know it works, but I’m glad you are here to tell us about it!! Thanks!

[Xctrygirl]

Quite possibly the oddest thing I’ll ever post.

John, who is a frustrated engineer type with no shortage of ideas, just put forth this idea.

Ejector saddles. Ok so the premise is along the lines of an air bag. With gps and other kinds of positional awareness say you’re in a rotational fall the saddle could deploy and throw you backwards. No guarantees that you wouldn’t break a bone but ideally it would get you thrown clear of the horse.

Simplistic in theory but probably more than a little challenging.

I thought about it and felt like we really should talk about all ideas, even the ones that seem nuts.

Emily

[Ready_To_Riot]

[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8664210]
Quite possibly the oddest thing I’ll ever post.

John, who is a frustrated engineer type with no shortage of ideas, just put forth this idea.

Ejector saddles. Ok so the premise is along the lines of an air bag. With gps and other kinds of positional awareness say you’re in a rotational fall the saddle could deploy and throw you backwards. No guarantees that you wouldn’t break a bone but ideally it would get you thrown clear of the horse.

Simplistic in theory but probably more than a little challenging.

I thought about it and felt like we really should talk about all ideas, even the ones that seem nuts.

Emily[/QUOTE]

If you are thrown backwards on a horse that is rotating forward, would you not meet their hind feet?