Hind feet would be a lot better than 1200 pounds, most likely, just on statistics.
How would the saddle tell if you were in a rotational fall vs. scopey jump arc? Or not deploy on a bucking horse? That seems hard but I am not a science person. Once the arc goes past so many degrees?
Iâm having John answer the question:
The theory is that with the proper algorithms, the timing of ejection would clear you. However, in the event of not clearing the following hind legs, the rotational momentum of the horse and his/her hind quarters would kick the rider further clear of a crushing landing underneath said horse. Worst case the rider would be kicked in the back of their vest or helmet therefore providing a greater chance of survival as opposed to being crushed.
John and Em
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8664215]
Hind feet would be a lot better than 1200 pounds, most likely, just on statistics.
How would the saddle tell if you were in a rotational fall vs. scopey jump arc? Or not deploy on a bucking horse? That seems hard but I am not a science person. Once the arc goes past so many degrees?[/QUOTE]
John replying again:
In much the same fashion as what keeps a camera drone in the air and providing a steady image even though there are forces being applied by wind gusts and vibration. Sensors would be constantly evaluating several parameters and only trigger the âejectionâ when all those parameters are met thereby eliminating the chance for a false or premature activation. Another example of smart sensor technology would be how an airbag in a car deploys only in higher speed accidents and not slow speed fender benders (over 10 mph I think?).
John & Em
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8664196]
Thanks JER!! I had no idea that vest existed! Itâs not âin vogueâ. It only comes in 1 color, but I bet if more people got interested in it, then they would make more color options! Itâs got a steep price tag, but itâs less expensive than your casket. I need a new best anyway. Definitely going to be looking at this one and the studies gone along with it.
Gnep, Iâm sorry you know it works, but Iâm glad you are here to tell us about it!! Thanks![/QUOTE]
The EXO is also no longer in production because riders wouldnât buy it and hasnât been for many years. Riders came up with all sorts of excuses not to buy it. WoofWear, the manufacturer, gave the patents and rights to a British group like BHA, but they have never put it production either. And no governing body is going to have the guts to require riders to ride in it. Once the Woof originals are out of the stream of commerce the EXO will be extinct.
[QUOTE=JER;8664107]
The XC best-equivalent of a roll cage is the EXO. Which the riders and eventing community did not embrace and still have not embraced.
This is the only device to date that a ride can wear to decrease their odds of dying of blunt force trauma or crush injuries to the chest.[/QUOTE]
Not to take away from the discussion in safety, but Iâm curious to know if PHâs death was due to crush injuries or something else. She was wearing an air vest and I know a major concern with them (well, at least a concern of those of us who donât âtrustâ them) is deployment after a rotational fall, thus exacerbating any neck/spinal injuries.
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8664237]
John replying again:
In much the same fashion as what keeps a camera drone in the air and providing a steady image even though there are forces being applied by wind gusts and vibration. Sensors would be constantly evaluating several parameters and only trigger the âejectionâ when all those parameters are met thereby eliminating the chance for a false or premature activation. Another example of smart sensor technology would be how an airbag in a car deploys only in higher speed accidents and not slow speed fender benders (over 10 mph I think?).
John & Em[/QUOTE]
My thought what the hind feet would catch you and you wouldnât ever get out from under the horse. But I am no scientist. Itâs just how it plays out in my head.
[QUOTE=Gnep;8664149]
I admire your endurance in that matter.
I do not think that the mindset in the organization, from the national to the international has it as a top priority. If it were the sport would have the jumps and the mandatory safety equipment to make a crash survivable.
I think it is unacceptable in a world were a F1 driver can flip and flop over and hit a concrete wall with over 200 miles an hour and than just walks away, a little shaken, not stirred and not on the rocks and eventing is basically still doing the same olâ same olâ.
If top level motor sports has an accident with serious injuries, they turn every stone over to prevent that from happening again. If they have a fatality they question the whole safety system, find the mistake in it and do what ever is possible to fix it.
They understand the nature of the beast, accidents will happen, but serious injuries and fatalities are not acceptable.
They improve the safety of their racetracks and the safety equipment of their drivers continuously and it is done from the top.[/QUOTE]
Yep, I grew up in car racing, raced myself for a while (SCCA) and worked in the industry. Safety is taken very seriously and my exposure to it has colored my behaviors in the horse industry as well.
I think itâs well past time to get past blame and finger pointing in our sport and get to solving the solvable. The difference between car racing and horses is that the cars (though at times it doesnât seem that way) behave in a predictable pattern, donât think for themselves, can be built to withstand predictable forces and it is also easy to build a rollcage around the driver that the driver can then be contained and restrained in. My mom could never stand to watch me jump horses, but she could sit in the pits and time me while racing.
(I know you, Gnep, know this but some folks arenât involved in car racing and might not think of it.)
[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8664253]
Not to take away from the discussion in safety, but Iâm curious to know if PHâs death was due to crush injuries or something else. She was wearing an air vest and I know a major concern with them (well, at least a concern of those of us who donât âtrustâ them) is deployment after a rotational fall, thus exacerbating any neck/spinal injuries.[/QUOTE]
Trying to be sensitive about what is written I will say the air vest did not worsen the injury here and I do not think crushing of the abdominal area will be indicated as a factor.
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8664210]
Quite possibly the oddest thing Iâll ever post.
John, who is a frustrated engineer type with no shortage of ideas, just put forth this idea.
Ejector saddles. Ok so the premise is along the lines of an air bag. With gps and other kinds of positional awareness say youâre in a rotational fall the saddle could deploy and throw you backwards. No guarantees that you wouldnât break a bone but ideally it would get you thrown clear of the horse.
Simplistic in theory but probably more than a little challenging.
I thought about it and felt like we really should talk about all ideas, even the ones that seem nuts.
Emily[/QUOTE]
Coming from âold schoolâ aerospace, I want to know where the explosive charges will be, or, if we are going with zero altitude ejection, the rocket motor?
I can picture it now. The event erupts into a 4th of July fireworks extravaganza after one person gets ejected, spooking all the other horses. Suddenly the sky is full of surprised riders.
Reed
Wouldnât just a real ground line make a difference with that fence? That is what I would want to put there. I understand it is advanced level, but still.
Also, while the face of the fence is rounded, it is not ascending. That seems like it would be a wee bit safer if it was.
But that is just me. :o
Also, will they just remove the fence entirely? They didnât do that after Christopher Reevesâ accident and it was just, weird, to jump it after that. It was not a big or hard fence, just the one that, eventually, killed Superman. 
An interesting question just came over my FB feed. Maybe yâall could help answer it:
âCan anyone think of an incidence of a cross country rotational fall resulting in a human fatality where the horse was a mare?â
[QUOTE=Badger;8664319]
An interesting question just came over my FB feed. Maybe yâall could help answer it:
âCan anyone think of an incidence of a cross country rotational fall resulting in a human fatality where the horse was a mare?â[/QUOTE]
I think the proportion of mares to geldings in all levels of eventing (especially the upper levels) tends to favor geldings, so statistically speaking I donât think itâs something worth ruminating over.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8664250]
The EXO is also no longer in production because riders wouldnât buy it and hasnât been for many years. Riders came up with all sorts of excuses not to buy it. WoofWear, the manufacturer, gave the patents and rights to a British group like BHA, but they have never put it production either. And no governing body is going to have the guts to require riders to ride in it. Once the Woof originals are out of the stream of commerce the EXO will be extinct.[/QUOTE]
So we have a piece of a equipment that is actually proven to work, but no one will use it? Did I read something wrong?
[QUOTE=RAyers;8664289]
Coming from âold schoolâ aerospace, I want to know where the explosive charges will be, or, if we are going with zero altitude ejection, the rocket motor?
I can picture it now. The event erupts into a 4th of July fireworks extravaganza after one person gets ejected, spooking all the other horses. Suddenly the sky is full of surprised riders.
Reed[/QUOTE]
And than the ground crew has to deal with the mess, scraping riders from roofs and trees.
I like the rocket motor idea, spectators would get a horse Bar - B - Q for free.
Bring your forks and knifes and some sauce, we are going eventing.
Competitors dinner.
[QUOTE=Xctrygirl;8664210]
Quite possibly the oddest thing Iâll ever post.
John, who is a frustrated engineer type with no shortage of ideas, just put forth this idea.
Ejector saddles. Ok so the premise is along the lines of an air bag. With gps and other kinds of positional awareness say youâre in a rotational fall the saddle could deploy and throw you backwards. No guarantees that you wouldnât break a bone but ideally it would get you thrown clear of the horse.
Simplistic in theory but probably more than a little challenging.
I thought about it and felt like we really should talk about all ideas, even the ones that seem nuts.
Emily[/QUOTE]
I gotta say, that is certainly thinking outside of the box.
[QUOTE=LAZ;8664042]
Quite honestly, I see nothing wrong with this fence. It has a rounded edge, there is a mulch patch out front in center to give a ground line. Itâs an advanced level fence, one that for an advanced horse should be a let up fence. The horse made a mistake. Now what needs to happen is that a rider or horse doesnât get killed for making a mistake over what should be an easily negotiated fence.[/QUOTE]
Thereâs the rub, dear friend, thereâs the rubâŠhorses do do make mistakes as do riders. If we put up fences that are high and wide, that are solid, and we gallop down to them, this is what we have to know: it can happen to us. No one really understands that, you canât. I do now because somehow I survived a broken neck that should have killed me or made me a quadraplegicâŠand I will never be the same. Phillipa knew in an intellectual way she could die yesterday, but not really. I knew her and I am devastated. But, Iâm equally upset by the death of the horse that died only because he trusted his rider and had the skill and training to go out and do what he knew. That being said, in honor of both, I took my OTTB out today and jumped my 12 inch cross rails, heart in hand, tears in eyes. RIP
Could you do something with springs on one side of the saddle that would simply push the rider off to the side? I have no idea what you could use to release the springs, though. Maybe some sort of lanyard as is used in air vests?
[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8664347]
So we have a piece of a equipment that is actually proven to work, but no one will use it? Did I read something wrong?[/QUOTE]
Nope, you got it right. A few here on the forum have one, 3 or 4 I remember. Reed has one, Jer, and me.
The argument was it weighs 8 pounds, to heavy, and it gives you at the beginning a restricted feeling. Sizing is difficult and they actually did not consider man size. I am not very tall and 160 pounds, Reed is not a large person either, we barely fit into the largest size. Jer is petite, but rather fit as I remember and has or had no problem with the vest.
Me and that crazy bitch had a minor disagreement while training and she rotated on landing and slammed into me, concussion and some bruises.
The concussion was the real problem, Doc tolled me to call it quits. I was smart enough to follow that advice. The crazy bitch just walked by the window with the rest of the golden age club.
Sizing was also a problem for non-petite riders like me. At the correct height (so it didnât catch on the cantle), I couldnât order an EXO that was big enough to go around my chest. Iâm 5â3 and a 36B, so not crazy big. I think I tried JERâs on once, canât remember if we were able to get it done up though - that was 10 years ago.
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