WTF Are We Doing?

[eventer215]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8664329]
An interesting question just came over my FB feed. Maybe y’all could help answer it:

“Can anyone think of an incidence of a cross country rotational fall resulting in a human fatality where the horse was a mare?”

I think the proportion of mares to geldings in all levels of eventing (especially the upper levels) tends to favor geldings, so statistically speaking I don’t think it’s something worth ruminating over.[/QUOTE]

Wasn’t KOC’s big fall with Veronica rotational?

[Gestalt]

I know this will never happen, but what I would like to see is more emphasis on galloping stamina and not on jumping in day two. Save the tricky, wide, and high fences for stadium.

I miss seeing the steeplechase/roads and tracks portion. Get rid of the cross country section and test horse and rider endurance through the original first two phases. Roads and tracks doesn’t have to take up enormous sections of land.

[Ready_To_Riot]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8664376]
Nope, you got it right. A few here on the forum have one, 3 or 4 I remember. Reed has one, Jer, and me.
The argument was it weighs 8 pounds, to heavy, and it gives you at the beginning a restricted feeling. Sizing is difficult and they actually did not consider man size. I am not very tall and 160 pounds, Reed is not a large person either, we barely fit into the largest size. Jer is petite, but rather fit as I remember and has or had no problem with the vest.
Me and that crazy bitch had a minor disagreement while training and she rotated on landing and slammed into me, concussion and some bruises.
The concussion was the real problem, Doc tolled me to call it quits. I was smart enough to follow that advice. The crazy bitch just walked by the window with the rest of the golden age club.[/QUOTE]

This is unfortunate. I’m not sure I’ll fit in one. I’m 5’ “athletic” but with boobs. At least for my size. 34 c. I would definitely love to try one on though. 8lbs that will save my life seems worth it to me…

Maybe someone will come in and work on the design. Make it light weight… Lighter weight.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Blugal;8664378]
Sizing was also a problem for non-petite riders like me. At the correct height (so it didn’t catch on the cantle), I couldn’t order an EXO that was big enough to go around my chest. I’m 5’3 and a 36B, so not crazy big. I think I tried JER’s on once, can’t remember if we were able to get it done up though - that was 10 years ago.[/QUOTE]

The idea was perfect and as I found out it worked. But they had just 3 or 4 sizes and basicly their measurements were not good. My guess low budget and the engineers were never able to consult some body from the clothing industry about sizing. The largest size, was a close fit for a flat chested midget like me.

But the basic design and idea behind it is right. Even that rotationals and or getting katch uped by a horse does not happen to often, but they are mostly fatal. A passive safety device that can reduce, not completely eliminate, nothing is 100%, the deadly result of a horse falling on the rider and just crush him/her has to be included into the discussion.
Should be mandatory and is so much easier to design and built.
Again motor sports, they know that accidents will happen, no matter how save the racetracks are, the drivers have to use equipment that give them a chance, if they like it or not, if it ads a burden or not and it does not matter if that piece of equipment is designed for a rare but deadly accident.
How many years since the Exo got on the market the first time, 15 or so ?
That is ancient in todays world of technology and materials. The sport and its suppliers should be able to demand and supply a vest that makes the most deadly accident survivable. That needs, as motor sport has shown, materials that can withstand brute force.

PS
Are you doing good ?

[Onetrickpuppy]

[QUOTE=Lucassb;8663417]
Something needs to change so that these tragedies are not a “normal” course of events at competitions. It is not acceptable that so many horses and riders die in this sport. I love horses, I love riding and I love to compete but for all that is holy… this is just too much. There must be a way to make the penalty for a horse or rider mistake less costly.[/QUOTE]

I normally lurk on this forum because I’m intrigued by the courage and bravery of both horse and riders who compete in the sport. But your remarks compelled me to comment here and to ask a few questions. Disclaimer: I have never competed in the sport and the closest I have ever came to jumping was going over a log on the trail. If my questions sound silly, my apologies in advance.
First, why aren’t the jumps collapsible? And second, do you (g) think the course designers of these events feel pressured to make the course as difficult and challenging as possible? I ask because I have designed trail courses for shows and I have found myself having to back off on the difficulty for safety’s sake.
I watch eventing on T.V. as much as possible, but there are times I am shocked at what the horse/rider teams are asked to do.

[Manahmanah]

[QUOTE=eventer215;8664403]
Wasn’t KOC’s big fall with Veronica rotational?[/QUOTE]

Jessie phoenix had a rotational at JFI last year atop a mare (AFR) but the question specifically states rotational with fatality. Though, it is my opinion that when a rotational happens, having a fatality follow or not is simply a matter of luck.

Also I think sineads bad fall in SJ was a rotational with on cue

[ksbadger]

IIRC the Exo was made of rolled aluminum tubing that had to have relatively thick padding on top. Its intent was to resist crushing so could this not be accomplished by a carbon fiber corset (easily tailored to fit) possibly in conjunction with the type of stiff preformed foam used in ballistic & motorcycling vests (and the KanTeq vest).
The problem with any sort of active element is not just how do you trigger it when it’s needed but how do you stop it from firing when you don’t? Especially for a rotational fall, a simple lanyard is not going to work as there is, by definition. no separation between horse & rider and, as is all too common at events, suffers from unwanted actuation.

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8664433]

PS
Are you doing good ?[/QUOTE]
I sent you a private message

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8664431]
This is unfortunate. I’m not sure I’ll fit in one. I’m 5’ “athletic” but with boobs. At least for my size. 34 c. I would definitely love to try one on though. 8lbs that will save my life seems worth it to me…

Maybe someone will come in and work on the design. Make it light weight… Lighter weight.[/QUOTE]

Carbon fiber would be the way to go, my guess. The Exo is titanium.
Carbon fiber can be designed, the way the fabric is layered, to take specific impacts. The technology is so advanced, that the design is all done on a computer.

No, somebody came up with the right idea, but was shut down by the industry, eventing, because they do not get it, as were all the other ideas. There is nobody, except for LAZ and a few others that still care and I admire them greatly. They are the folks that make the sport.

But well they are having a helmet on during dressage and if one does use a tall hat, they all get upset
Yes a helmet is a good choise, even during dressage, but it is basicly nothing more than political correctness. One of those easy knee jerking rules, because 99% will never get to ride at the level were they could use a tall hat.

When it comes to safety, eventing is rather knee jerking.

[IFG]

My husband overheard me and my daughter discussing rotational falls and asked to see a video of one. I was surprised to see that one of the first to come up was none other than Nicola Wilson and Opposition Buzz. If even they fall victim to the square tables, you really have got to wonder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrqOS05qWOM

[Blugal]

I don’t think that was a square table - it looks like a roof-top on the boat. If I remember correctly, the A element (same shape of jump) was a problem for Jennie Brannigan a couple years ago.

[betonbill]

Until the riders/spouses, the owners, the jump builders, and the course designers all come on board and decide that change is needed, I’m afraid this will only be another in a long string of postmortem discussions.

Hopefully, perhaps this struck a little closer to home. There are ULRs with little kidlets and families who would be similarly affected by a tragedy like this. Hopefully, if some of these ULRs or owners identify more with this, they might start thinking about and demanding more changes in jump design/course design.

Or maybe not.

[WW_Queen]

All it would take is one BNT to enter one of those Exit from sport programs (for athletes looking to start over in new careers) to really shake up the ULR’s, watching one of their own defect. Better to start over in a new career but still be able to take your kid on hacks on weekends then miss out entirely.

Riding is an inherently dangerous sport but eventing doesn’t need to be like this. All of our little ones should get to keep us as long as possible.

[cbv]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8664433]
The idea was perfect and as I found out it worked. But they had just 3 or 4 sizes and basicly their measurements were not good. My guess low budget and the engineers were never able to consult some body from the clothing industry about sizing. The largest size, was a close fit for a flat chested midget like me.

But the basic design and idea behind it is right. Even that rotationals and or getting katch uped by a horse does not happen to often, but they are mostly fatal. A passive safety device that can reduce, not completely eliminate, nothing is 100%, the deadly result of a horse falling on the rider and just crush him/her has to be included into the discussion.
Should be mandatory and is so much easier to design and built.
Again motor sports, they know that accidents will happen, no matter how save the racetracks are, the drivers have to use equipment that give them a chance, if they like it or not, if it ads a burden or not and it does not matter if that piece of equipment is designed for a rare but deadly accident.
How many years since the Exo got on the market the first time, 15 or so ?
That is ancient in todays world of technology and materials. The sport and its suppliers should be able to demand and supply a vest that makes the most deadly accident survivable. That needs, as motor sport has shown, materials that can withstand brute force.

PS
Are you doing good ?[/QUOTE]

No motorhead here, but husband is. I don’t recall NASCAR embracing the HAN’s device until they lost Dale Earnhardt. And I am relatively sure he wasn’t a fan.

And what I recall of the recent movies about the lives of formula one racers there was a time the life expectancy there was very low as well.

I am not arguing against all the safety research and implementation, just saying comparing to auto racing does not take into account the resistance to change in motor sports and the fact that change came in spite of the resistance (thus I am trying to support LAZ’s point of view that support for research may lead to change in spite of past resistance).

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=IFG;8664524]
My husband overheard me and my daughter discussing rotational falls and asked to see a video of one. I was surprised to see that one of the first to come up was none other than Nicola Wilson and Opposition Buzz. If even they fall victim to the square tables, you really have got to wonder.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrqOS05qWOM[/QUOTE]

There was definitely an error chain going on there. First he pecked on landing into the water, which took away from their impulsion and engine. Nicola was off balance by the time he jumped the bank out (she gets left behind badly) and it appears he just misjudged the takeoff on the second one – left his front legs down and just went right into it. It’s a bounce bank out of water, and from what I can see, the fall had nothing to do with the type of fence after the bank. She would have fallen no matter what type of jump was in their way.

FWIW, here’s a video of the same jump (I’m 99% sure it is) at the same event, same year. Looks like it’s ridden by Andrew Nicholson or another Kiwi (and one more after him), and it looks like you had to be balls-to-the-wall FORWARD coming out of that water. Watch the rider right after him who rode the snot out of it: https://youtu.be/qmhxJw6w1OM?t=8m58s

I applaud eventers who can “make a great save,” but at the same time, this was probably one of those instances where you’d want to regroup and take the long route, rather than risk paddling your way out of a situation that required a lot of impulsion/hind end action!

ETA: YouTube showed its typical bunch of “similar videos” when I found the Luhmuhlen one above. Kevin McNab has almost the exact same ride as Nicola – horse stumbles in water, but he salvages an extra stride (from what I could count – she did 7, he got 8). Apparently it was just enough because he made it out.

[IFG]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8664607]
There was definitely an error chain going on there. First he pecked on landing into the water, which took away from their impulsion and engine. Nicola was off balance by the time he jumped the bank out (she gets left behind badly) and it appears he just misjudged the takeoff on the second one – left his front legs down and just went right into it. It’s a bounce bank out of water, and from what I can see, the fall had nothing to do with the type of fence after the bank. She would have fallen no matter what type of jump was in their way.

FWIW, here’s a video of the same jump (I’m 99% sure it is) at the same event, same year. Looks like it’s ridden by Andrew Nicholson or another Kiwi (and one more after him), and it looks like you had to be FORWARD as all hell coming out of that water. Watch the rider right after him who rode the snot out of it: https://youtu.be/qmhxJw6w1OM?t=8m58s

I applaud eventers who can “make a great save,” but at the same time, this was probably one of those instances where you’d want to regroup and take the long route, rather than risk paddling your way out of a situation that required a lot of impulsion/hind end action![/QUOTE]

Thanks. Completely agree. Was just really surprised to see that fall. There is so little margin for error, even for one of the best XC horses.

[goodmorning]

What I find interesting about that fence is the red boat with a white top coming out of water. Does anyone have the link to the color studies handy?

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=IFG;8664611]
Thanks. Completely agree. Was just really surprised to see that fall. There is so little margin for error, even for one of the best XC horses.[/QUOTE]

Yep. And one of the reasons why I’m rethinking my move up to Prelim. Considering how my horse basically climbed over a corner at my last Prelim in 2015 before I fell off at the next fence (both unharmed, just me popping off his shoulder), I’m not in any rush. (This was also a good example of an error chain – didn’t get to walk the course with a professional, my trainer brushed me off when I raised questions about that specific jump, he was behind my leg the whole round, and overall he just wasn’t there. In hindsight I should have retired after the corner – even though it was 3 fences from home – but I didn’t want to disappoint said trainer. Not a very smart move on my part. :sigh: )

[Beam_Me_Up]

I bought an Exo but have not had great luck using it. Have ridden at home but not xc so far. I can start another thread if people prefer, but since there seem to be some fans on this thread, my questions:

1. Mine rides up, as I ride the top of the shoulders come up level to about my ears (which seems like it would be bad in a fall as I’d catch my jaw). Does that mean it is too small? I have the A4, and am probably a medium sized person, larger sized woman (5’9, 155). I don’t believe they make a larger size.

2. I understand the positives of the crush protection, but the rigidity makes me feel like it might be a liability in more minor falls, preventing a softer tuck landing, is this correct? (IOW, good for UL x-c where the crush risk is higher, but maybe not best for daily baby schooling where you’re more likely to want to tuck and roll?)

FWIW, for all the complaints about weight, that aspect doesn’t bother me at all. I can’t put mine on myself which is a limitation, and the process feels a bit indelicate to involve randoms in the parking area, so I have only worn one when accompanied by a helper, but once on it feels ok except for the extreme riding up.

Thoughts, anyone who has one?

Thanks!!

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8664492]
Carbon fiber would be the way to go, my guess. The Exo is titanium.
Carbon fiber can be designed, the way the fabric is layered, to take specific impacts. The technology is so advanced, that the design is all done on a computer.

No, somebody came up with the right idea, but was shut down by the industry, eventing, because they do not get it, as were all the other ideas. There is nobody, except for LAZ and a few others that still care and I admire them greatly. They are the folks that make the sport.

But well they are having a helmet on during dressage and if one does use a tall hat, they all get upset
Yes a helmet is a good choise, even during dressage, but it is basicly nothing more than political correctness. One of those easy knee jerking rules, because 99% will never get to ride at the level were they could use a tall hat.

When it comes to safety, eventing is rather knee jerking.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Gnep, I’m touched. I’m pretty much a nobody in the big scheme of things but I do care, and it’s my nature to be involved.

FWIW, I do believe that people tend to talk, and talk a lot, without ever bestirring themselves to actually make a difference. I try to bite my tongue when I’d rather shout (and sometimes I fail miserably, lol) and think of the words of my wise vet “I always try to see these challenging moments as an opportunity for education”.

We all want what is best for our horses, our friends, our families, our sport; we just don’t really want to pay much for it (either via cash in hand or volunteering time) unless our hand is forced.

I believe we are at a crossroads and the future of horses in sport is in the balance–most people never see or touch a horse in their daily lives. The Calvary days are long past. Horses are no longer used to work, except in rare instances and those could likely be replaced by less romantic 4 wheelers. We now only use them for sport and for pets. Death in the line of survival is no longer part of the equation and we are all under the scrutiny of animal rights activists. (Look at recent developments with circus animals and zoos). I love horses; their grace, thei nobility, their fluid athleticism, the way they chuff as they gallop along, ears pricked, the way they greet me as I walk into the stables, the feeling of a young horse learning its lesson of the day. I can’t ever remember not loving horses and I think Event horses are the most amazing, generous, brave, athletic ones of the bunch. I hope enough other people feel the same way that we will protect the future of the sport by putting serious effort into protecting our horses (and in doing so, protecting their riders). We can never make it risk free, but we can make it less risky, and we simply must get behind that though with our brain power, financial resources, and strength of will.