[QUOTE=goodmorning;8664625]
What I find interesting about that fence is the red boat with a white top coming out of water. Does anyone have the link to the color studies handy?[/QUOTE]
Luhmuhlen is a CMP course. He neither knows nor gives a flying F* about science. Was that video from the year Dibo stood up and said his XC course was terribly unsafe?
Horses don’t see red as red; not sure about white but I do know that it is less visible than green or brown or yellow.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8664693]
Luhmuhlen is a CMP course. He neither knows nor gives a flying F* about science. Was that video from the year Dibo stood up and said his XC course was terribly unsafe?
Horses don’t see red as red; not sure about white but I do know that it is less visible than green or brown or yellow.[/QUOTE]
I, for one, am tired of the insults. You have a specific issue with a CMP course, put it in print and mail it directly to him, the USEF and the FEI (you’re an FEI steward, right?) and post the results of the exchange afterwards. Let’s start working productively together.
And I’m sick of people circling the wagons. Just because someone has ridden high level courses doesn’t mean that they have the science to design safe courses. Every horse person should know that horses don’t process red as red. It’s not in their color chart. They see it as gray. So why would any horse person who knows the science use red in a very complicated XC water complex? My recollection is that after Dibo called him out one year, CMP’s response was a variant of “Toughen Up, Cupcake.”
I will say that the next year’s course was somewhat more forgiving.
I don’t think course designer certifications are given that lightly; I remember Ian Stark showing me the manual he was studying before he got his certification and the work he put into it. It was not an insignificant amount of information to consider and be able to produce the results.
Regardless, I stand by the working together issue rather than fomenting discord. It’s easy to use hindsight and failed issues to make judgments but it does not help with the future to not use them as educational opportunities. Let’s use past failures as a key to forward progression rather than blame. The past is the key to the future (spoken as a geologist ??).
One thing that might help–and forgive me if this is already done–but anytime there is a death at a competition no matter whether it’s FEI, USEF, or USEA why is not a safety review commission established to determine precisely why the person (and/or horse) died? The physics of the fall to be precise. NTSA does this whenever a plane goes down. There are plenty of engineering, science, stats, and safety experienced people who are members of the organization. Yes, I know that much data is collected, but what is being done with it? Has any course designer ever been disciplined when a person dies on his course? Certainly not, because no one has bothered to find out exactly why the person died. It seems to be an established fact that horse sports have the highest mortality rate of any sport; whether that includes motorcycle racing and motor racing I do not know. If it does, that’s shocking.
How many deaths are too many?
I’m reminded of legislatures that call for studies whenever they don’t want to pass legislation that is clearly needed.
The USEA’s safety group is composed of organizers and course designers, etc. No safety people. No engineers. No science people, just big time horse people.
Where is the expertise to address the issues coming from? It’s like saying that because I can drive a car and drive it well, I’m qualified to determine the causes of car crashes and what safety improvements are both feasible and necessary. And when they are offered expertise, they either ignore the offers or put the studies in the filing cabinets.
Is there a link to an image of this jump? The comments are hard to understand without that.
There is a link to a photo in Divine Comedy’s post #593.
Forgive me, as I haven’t had time to read the entire post. Is there a link to where you can donate to the research?
[QUOTE=FatDinah;8664765]
Is there a link to an image of this jump? The comments are hard to understand without that.[/QUOTE]
There one here http://eventingconnect.today/2016/05/12/take-a-virtual-walk-around-the-jersey-fresh-cross-country-cci3-and-cci2-courses/ Scroll down to the map. It’s fence 16 on the CCI *** course.
[QUOTE=Beam Me Up;8664650]
I bought an Exo but have not had great luck using it. Have ridden at home but not xc so far. I can start another thread if people prefer, but since there seem to be some fans on this thread, my questions:
Mine rides up, as I ride the top of the shoulders come up level to about my ears (which seems like it would be bad in a fall as I’d catch my jaw). Does that mean it is too small? I have the A4, and am probably a medium sized person, larger sized woman (5’9, 155). I don’t believe they make a larger size.
I understand the positives of the crush protection, but the rigidity makes me feel like it might be a liability in more minor falls, preventing a softer tuck landing, is this correct? (IOW, good for UL x-c where the crush risk is higher, but maybe not best for daily baby schooling where you’re more likely to want to tuck and roll?)
FWIW, for all the complaints about weight, that aspect doesn’t bother me at all. I can’t put mine on myself which is a limitation, and the process feels a bit indelicate to involve randoms in the parking area, so I have only worn one when accompanied by a helper, but once on it feels ok except for the extreme riding up.
Thoughts, anyone who has one?
Thanks!![/QUOTE]
This is disappointing. I am your same weight and a couple inches taller and just ordered an EXO in A4. We shall see. I can tell you there appears to be an A5 but the only place that appeared to have it charged $200 more for the thing and for that, I figured I would try the A4 first given the difference in size was 1 inch give or take when I converted it. I thought I could smoosh my boobs a bit for $200 given I rarely do XC anyway and when I do it will be lower levels.
I also may use it for riding young stock if it is not too restrictive. But not if it takes 2 people to put on because there is only 1 of me here when I ride.
Will loop back when I try it.
I had all the same issues with the EXO I was loaned. Couldn’t make it work for me. Wanted it to…
[QUOTE=gardenie;8664836]
I had all the same issues with the EXO I was loaned. Couldn’t make it work for me. Wanted it to…[/QUOTE]
I remember looking at one, but the sizing for me was an issue at 6’2" 170#. I vaguely remember Reed having to customize/modify one to fit him in his metal lab, but I could be wrong about that. As far as the weight, I suppose in those teeter-totter moments it might be unbalancing, but it would sure beat having a horse land on top of you.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8664452]
Jessie phoenix had a rotational at JFI last year atop a mare (AFR) but the question specifically states rotational with fatality. Though, it is my opinion that when a rotational happens, having a fatality follow or not is simply a matter of luck.
Also I think sineads bad fall in SJ was a rotational with on cue[/QUOTE]
Her rotational was on Exultation, a gelding, her fall was at Rolex on A Little Romance.
[QUOTE=GrayCatFarm;8664796]
Forgive me, as I haven’t had time to read the entire post. Is there a link to where you can donate to the research?
http://www.useventing.com/news/usea-collapsible-fence-study-garners-tremendous-response
you can click on donate, and then click on the fence study button under donate.
I think a carbon fiber vest is worth pursuing–molds could be individualized relatively easily by using expanding foam (but they would not be cheap). This is something a race car engineer could figure out, I bet.
Among other things, Warmbloods in eventing, I think the statistics should include the breed/type of horses falling to disabling injuries and rider deaths.
I have now edited to add the names of the two recent riders and horses who have passed, I just didn’t have time to edit it before.
I think you mean NTSB, but it is a valid point and a reflection of my own thought on this topic.
I just got back from a show, took the time to catch up and found many of the remarks interesting in the attempt to find solutions, but to find a solution, you need to understand the problem.
Time and time again, when these tragic events occur we get the plethora of sympathies, the out pouring of condolences and jingles, but the moment someone says “how did it happen?” “Perhaps it was rider error?” “Was the horse well trained” they are slapped down for being insulting, cruel, uncaring. Don’t believe me? Read past posts in other threads, hell, even this one to see the pattern resolve.
The point is that if we do not ask questions, debate, talk about it, if we do not officially investigate an serious or deadly accident on course we cannot really being to even establish the kind of research that can target the problem.
Is it colors?
Is it lighting?
Is it footing, approach?
Is it Training?
Is it fitness?
A group of real experts, engineering, horse physiology, scientists, Trainers, even psychologists that have the ability to investigate can begin to build a database on real events, similar to how forensics builds on real, past events to determine better an actual cause. The statement “Too soon” should not exist for just as in an airplane incident, the NTSB does not wait sometime to get started, even in interviewing surviving passengers and crew. It can be done with compassion, but it needs to be done.
In conjunction with such an investigation, every UL Course at least 3* and above, but maybe even 2* should have a video camera on each fence with either a recording loop for some set time or a fixed time (depends on storage). This is not for posterity, but to provide investigators the ability to accurately analyze the mechanics of what happened without the reliance of third party media. Yes it is a cost, but compare that to the cost of life. Besides, cameras are very cheap these days and storage is huge so it is a no-brainer to have small or mini camera’s set either on every fence of those that are deemed extreme (Vicarage Vee?)
If we are truly wanting this sport to be safer, yet still be challenging then it starts with accepting, at some level in this sport, the cost of an official investigation. Yes, it is a dangerous sport, but then so was flying. By creating an investigating board the airplane industry was able to dramatically reduce deaths while making flight safe, even in air races.
I don’t want to know how or why someone died on course because I am a ghoul or uncaring, I want to know so that I can possibly make a change such that it does not happen to me or that the sport can make a change the keeps it challenging yet slightly safer.
As to the last thought, None should be the answer even as we understand that it is impossible without ending the sport. All the pieces are there to make this a challenging, difficult sport to compete in without consciously creating situations that invite death or injury to horse or rider.
Carol Kozlowski is the Cochair for the Safety & Equine Welfare committee, and president elect for the USEA. She is a person that gets things done in a practical way. Her email address is on the USEA site and I recommend making your voice heard to her.
[QUOTE=LAZ;8664679]
We all want what is best for our horses, our friends, our families, our sport; we just don’t really want to pay much for it (either via cash in hand or volunteering time) unless our hand is forced. [/QUOTE]
I agree with most of what LAZ is saying here.
BUT, whether it is research, technologically advanced safety equipment, or review commissions of catastrophic events much of what is being discussed here is very, very expensive and will make this sport cost prohibitive for all but the very wealthy. For example: carbon fiber vests sound great–raise your hand if you are willing/able to pay a couple grand for one.
Don’t get me wrong–I’m all for figuring out how to make things safer and have made donations in the past to some of these things, but there is a sobering reality to financing the whole big picture that most people seem to ignore.
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