WTF Are We Doing?

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Tucked_Away;8670129]
The organizations really, really need to hire (and listen to) some folks with training in crisis and risk communication.

I’m trying really hard to stay out of the rabbit hole of this discussion, but even if one things that eventing is on the right road (I don’t, and but if), it sucks goats in the communications department and is doing itself no favors as a result.[/QUOTE]

That I don’t disagree.

Of course that also costs $$$$. While I do think we have some excellent people on the various safety committees…I do think we need to treat aspects of this sport a bit more like the private sector—with empowered independent committees. There needs to be a professional safety committee. One that has experienced riders, organizers etc. but also safety experts. It needs to be paid not volunteer. And it needs to be given actual power to implement changes independent of the normal rule making process. And there needs to be funding for safety matters. Mandatory funding from membership and entries…that is used for some research and other subsidizing cost of safety improvements. I think this should be outside the USEA/USEF/FEI but can pass safety rules outside of the USEF/FEI. This should perhaps be a global effort…the sport is international and we need to be better about sharing information. That said…from a practical perspective…this would be near impossible to implement.

Steps have been taken in this direction, but more are needed. Added with some better communication. There really is no simple fix.

Until then…as riders, owners etc. We have to do what we can on our own safety. Be smart about our training and education. Be smart about the horses we ride. And be responsible for ourselves, our horses and those who we do have influence. That will not prevent all accidents…but it is something we can do.

[JenJ]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8670154]
Jon Holling wrote a post yesterday denouncing the critics on the board/Facebook who feel TPTB weren’t doing enough for the sport, and accused them of “hiding behind” their computer screens and not taking action. This is just one of many posts written by professionals/ULRs who are taking this stance of “you don’t understand, and until you do, stop criticizing us and the officials.” To me, it’s a glaring example of what is wrong here: there is a HUGE disconnect between the professionals/officials, and amateurs.

Just look around Facebook – every other comment/share of his post is from an ULR saying things like, “It’s disappointing to see the things people are writing and complete misinformation they are presenting as ‘facts’. Completely unproductive, if the “powers that be” didn’t have to spend so much time correcting the misinformation thrown out there they would have more time to work on the actual issues” [Lauren Kieffer], “The list is short as is the credit you [Jon Holling] are all getting today from people who know no better” [Kylie Lyman], “Stop making inflammatory and often ill informed comments from the sidelines. To say that riders don’t care about this is absolutely wrong. We lost our friends…human and equine. Just think about that before you turn us into monsters on social media” [Sara Kozumplik], etc.

I’m not trying to single those three out to make them look like bad people. They’re not. They’re just as rattled and concerned as we are. But at the same time, it just shows me that the ULRs are so on the defensive against the Negative Nellys that they aren’t willing to work WITH those who are TRYING put in good ideas, the ones who are donating money to studies, the ones that are volunteering their time/knowledge/effort to said studies (Gnep, RAYers, LAZ, JER, etc.). We want our voices heard, and the inflammatory comments coming from the NNs are drowning us out. Yet it’s easy to have your opinion and suggestions taken into consideration when you’re a 3 or 4* rider but not as so when you’re Susie Beginner Novice.

And this is why things will not change until we can come together as a group and get rid of this “us versus them” mentality I’ve been seeing all over the place. There can’t be dialogue and resolution until both sides acknowledge that. I wrote this in my response to JH’s post, but I honestly doubt anyone will read it. I am just an amateur that doesn’t know any better, after all. :sigh:[/QUOTE]

I think one reply to this by Ian Gilmour addressed exactly this point. ULRs, if they want to keep getting students, getting sponsors, selling horses, getting selected for the team, cannot afford to do anything other that support TPTB. I don’t believe for a second that TPTB or the ULRs are callous, indifferent, etc. but Ian’s comments was I think the only name (recognized by me) as connected with the upper levels who took on the attack against the assumption that those of us commenting on line are know nothings, hiding behind the computer screen board.

[TBFAN]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8670154]
Jon Holling wrote a post yesterday denouncing the critics on the board/Facebook who feel TPTB weren’t doing enough for the sport, and accused them of “hiding behind” their computer screens and not taking action. This is just one of many posts written by professionals/ULRs who are taking this stance of “you don’t understand, and until you do, stop criticizing us and the officials.” To me, it’s a glaring example of what is wrong here: there is a HUGE disconnect between the professionals/officials, and amateurs.

Just look around Facebook – every other comment/share of his post is from an ULR saying things like, “It’s disappointing to see the things people are writing and complete misinformation they are presenting as ‘facts’. Completely unproductive, if the “powers that be” didn’t have to spend so much time correcting the misinformation thrown out there they would have more time to work on the actual issues” [Lauren Kieffer], “The list is short as is the credit you [Jon Holling] are all getting today from people who know no better” [Kylie Lyman], “Stop making inflammatory and often ill informed comments from the sidelines. To say that riders don’t care about this is absolutely wrong. We lost our friends…human and equine. Just think about that before you turn us into monsters on social media” [Sara Kozumplik], etc.

I’m not trying to single those three out to make them look like bad people. They’re not. They’re just as rattled and concerned as we are. But at the same time, it just shows me that the ULRs are so on the defensive against the Negative Nellys that they aren’t willing to work WITH those who are TRYING put in good ideas, the ones who are donating money to studies, the ones that are volunteering their time/knowledge/effort to said studies (Gnep, RAYers, LAZ, JER, etc.). We want our voices heard, and the inflammatory comments coming from the NNs are drowning us out. Yet it’s easy to have your opinion and suggestions taken into consideration when you’re a 3 or 4* rider but not as so when you’re Susie Beginner Novice.

And this is why things will not change until we can come together as a group and get rid of this “us versus them” mentality I’ve been seeing all over the place. There can’t be dialogue and resolution until both sides acknowledge that. I wrote this in my response to JH’s post, but I honestly doubt anyone will read it. I am just an amateur that doesn’t know any better, after all. :sigh:[/QUOTE]

^^ This - Exactly.
This is part of the problem that keeps us from implementing workable solutions. I have seen countless posts on FB from UL riders, saying ‘how dare you’ and “how many UL riders do you even know”. As though that somehow means my opinions are less valid.
I have been involved in and supporting this sport for 25 years - my opinions on it are as valid as anyone’s.
I have never questioned ANYONE at the UL, or TPTB’s concern or compassion for their horse, their friends or their sport. That defense is an evasion that takes away from the actual issues.
Today on his page, Denny talked about the LL breaking off from the much smaller percentage of UL riders - a division in the sport, essentially.
Since I have spent the last 3 days reading about how I don’t know anything and don’t have a voice since I don’t ride above prelim, that sounds like a pretty appealing option about now.

[HorsesinHaiti]

[QUOTE=TBFAN;8670204]
^^ This - Exactly.
This is part of the problem that keeps us from implementing workable solutions. I have seen countless posts on FB from UL riders, saying ‘how dare you’ and “how many UL riders do you even know”. As though that somehow means my opinions are less valid.
I have been involved in and supporting this sport for 25 years - my opinions on it are as valid as anyone’s.
I have never questioned ANYONE at the UL, or TPTB’s concern or compassion for their horse, their friends or their sport. That defense is an evasion that takes away from the actual issues.
Today on his page, Denny talked about the LL breaking off from the much smaller percentage of UL riders - a division in the sport, essentially.
Since I have spent the last 3 days reading about how I don’t know anything and don’t have a voice since I don’t ride above prelim, that sounds like a pretty appealing option about now.[/QUOTE]

This board and other venues - anyone here remember LOWER? It’s still around - have plenty of discussion of doing just that. There are many eventers and eventing fans who like the LL sport because eventing has a real history of building partnership and horse-first horsemanship. Who are now looking for ways to continue the horsemanship training of LL eventing while personally - or more globally - ditching the risk and inadequate safety focus of the UL.

They are very happy to talk with non-eventers like Triplebar in sober, open to solutions conversations. Because they are aready saying everything Triplebar said. But if you start calling them horsekillers and child abusers, because they try to hang on to the good horsemanship training at the lower levels (often at unregistered and non-USEA supporting events)? That prejudice and hypocrisy, not the ideas per se, is what many LL people are blowing off.

In other words, you can indeed pay attention to and respect that other horsepeople and fans are angry about the deaths without accepting blanket condemnation of LL eventing as ‘willing enablers’.

[JER]

At this point, even devout eventers have to admit that the sport has earned the anger and frustration that is hurled at it in the wake of these continued deaths.

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=Gestalt;8670135]
:no:

Except we aren’t talking about those sports. And how about we get rid of the defeatist attitude and try to make a difference, in a positive way.[/QUOTE]

I want to make a difference and I am not being a defeatist. Please note I also provided information about sports we participate in voluntarily. I am providing data. Child bearing is also voluntary and is much more risky than eventing. We can do better, yes. My point is that we are not barbarians with incredibly high levels of fatalities. We are living and every aspect of living has risk and involves death. Eventing is reducing its fatalities, the US is increasing its fatalities among childbearing women. It is perspective.

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=JER;8670258]
At this point, even devout eventers have to admit that the sport has earned the anger and frustration that is hurled at it in the wake of these continued deaths.[/QUOTE]

JER - that is why I am giving other life and sport examples. Again, better is always possible. But I am not sure how we have “earned” anger and frustration by funding studies and taking actions that have resulted in declining fatalities. There is a bigger picture and we actually don’t have a lot of data and we may not be making the proper comparisions with the past, with other disciplines and with other sports. There is no “apples to apples” with eventing. So we are going to have to look at oranges and make adjustments. Ranting and raving does not lead to improvement. Data and discussion do. There is nothing worse that rule changes/course changes/lynch mobs that are knee jerk. I think our sport has been working year over year for improvement. No one seems at all up in arms over the horse that was euthanized at a CSI*** in Europe last week. Data. We don’t have it. Perspective. We are losing it.

[Tucked_Away]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670276]
There is nothing worse that rule changes/course changes/lynch mobs that are knee jerk.[/QUOTE]

I think dead horses and riders are worse. Your mileage may of course vary.

I reject the idea that we don’t have any apples. Eventing is not the only sport out there with a baseline of risk. It’s not even the only one that involves animals. I think endurance riding – most notably but not exclusively the AERC/FEI split – is a useful model. I follow hockey; I think the NHL is far from unproblematic but that the Department of Player Safety might be an interesting culture-shift mechanism to examine. Friends have pointed to car and to ski racing.

I also work in a field that both is strongly science-based and that takes as read that we must sometimes in an emergency operate without having all the information we might like. This is a doable thing; it’s even a thing that can be done well.

Not all change is better. But also: not all change is worse. No change at all feels pretty bad right now, though. Again, YMMV.

Okay. I’m out.

[wildlifer]

[QUOTE=TRIPLEBAR;8670184]
the last horse I really remember that died in UL Show Jumping was Hickstead (again, correct me if I am wrong). [/QUOTE]

Just as an FYI:
9 year old show-jumper euthanized after breaking leg in a fall last week in Munich, 20-yr old rider was hospitalized with concussion & injuries
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/horse-euthanized-after-fall-munich-csi

[hamsterpoop]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8668901]

I thought the post was interesting and worth to think about.[/QUOTE]

You did? Gnep, I am worried about you…

@kkj;8668171

I also think that eventing as a sport should be eliminated…

It pisses me off that Eventing is in the Olympics. Why don’t they throw in bull fighting or a gun shootout where they litter the field with baby farm animals.

Hmm…never thought of that.

[QUOTE=kkj;8668782]
A horse is a stupid animal…[/QUOTE]

ENOUGH!!!

Mock and insult the dead and the living if you will, but when you go after my horses, BEGONE!!

P.S. None of kkj’s novel ideas are to be found in the manual of How to Effect Positive Change.

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=Tucked_Away;8670158]

Point: low-incidence events can still cause unacceptable levels of injury and death. We work to improve treatment for rare cancers, for example.

Point: statistics are information, not absolution. Reasonable people can disagree about what constitutes an acceptable baseline level of “stuff happens.” But one activity having a lower rate than another does not, in itself, mean the first doesn’t have a problem.[/QUOTE]

Never do I say we don’t have a problem. I provided data, which no one seems to want. They just want to be outraged. Lots of different kinds of data. (Yes, CDC data.) Some day, if we want to come to peace we are going to have to decide what an acceptable result is. I never say these numbers are apples to apples, another poster claims that is possible, I disagree. I simply offer you information. You can spin yourselves around in circles calling people names and pointing fingers or you can get some numbers, set some goals and put some changes in place and see how they live up to those goals. Eliminate tables. OK. Reduce speeds. OK. But how are you going to determine if those changes are effective? You are going to have to use numbers. And if you make 2 changes at the same time you are never going to know which change impacted your results. Have your witch hunt/lynch mob. I love my horses, I love this sport, I love people who participate at the upper and lower levels and I don’t put my head in sand. I would like to work to move forward instead of talking about how no horse should ever be sold to an eventing home because that is just cruel.

I am going to say it one more time. Providing you with information doesn’t mean I think the data is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think eventing is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think we don’t have to improve. It means we need to quantify where we are and where we want to be. It gives us a basis for comparison. But everyone just wants to be angry and hateful. Do you think NASA scientists run around shouting at each other after a space shuttle accident? Don’t you think they know a mistake was made and everyone feels terrible over the loss of life. Don’t you think they attempt to identify the cause of the problem and solve it. Statistically space travel is off the charts in terms of risk. Childbirth is risky. Yet people choose to take these risks. Human beings will always take risks. Find ways to reduce the risks. Do it systematically.

[tbchick84]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670496]
Never do I say we don’t have a problem. I provided data, which no one seems to want. They just want to be outraged. Lots of different kinds of data. (Yes, CDC data.) Some day, if we want to come to peace we are going to have to decide what an acceptable result is. I never say these numbers are apples to apples, another poster claims that is possible, I disagree. I simply offer you information. You can spin yourselves around in circles calling people names and pointing fingers or you can get some numbers, set some goals and put some changes in place and see how they live up to those goals. Eliminate tables. OK. Reduce speeds. OK. But how are you going to determine if those changes are effective? You are going to have to use numbers. And if you make 2 changes at the same time you are never going to know which change impacted your results. Have your witch hunt/lynch mob. I love my horses, I love this sport, I love people who participate at the upper and lower levels and I don’t put my head in sand. I would like to work to move forward instead of talking about how no horse should ever be sold to an eventing home because that is just cruel.

I am going to say it one more time. Providing you with information doesn’t mean I think the data is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think eventing is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think we don’t have to improve. It means we need to quantify where we are and where we want to be. It gives us a basis for comparison. But everyone just wants to be angry and hateful. Do you think NASA scientists run around shouting at each other after a space shuttle accident? Don’t you think they know a mistake was made and everyone feels terrible over the loss of life. Don’t you think they attempt to identify the cause of the problem and solve it. Statistically space travel is off the charts in terms of risk. Childbirth is risky. Yet people choose to take these risks. Human beings will always take risks. Find ways to reduce the risks. Do it systematically.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

[MNEventer]

[QUOTE=JER;8670258]
At this point, even devout eventers have to admit that the sport has earned the anger and frustration that is hurled at it in the wake of these continued deaths.[/QUOTE]

Indeed.

When the immediate reaction to a horrible fence like the Vicarage Vee or consistent maiming/deaths is “eh, horses/life be dangerous, whaddyagonnado,” there is no excuse for being surprised by vitriol. I don’t want to see another dead horse or rider, but I’m pretty sure I will before the summer is out. Probably before the month is out. It’s getting nigh impossible to defend the sport. :no: It’s hard to not think of Nero and his fiddle, really.

[tbchick84]

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8670679]
Indeed.

When the immediate reaction to a horrible fence like the Vicarage Vee or consistent maiming/deaths is “eh, horses/life be dangerous, whaddyagonnado,” .[/QUOTE]

I don’t know of anyone who thought that about Vicarage Vee. Everyone I know was asking what the course designer was trying to prove by making something that demanded absolute perfection and how ridiculous it was. There’s no reason for a question like that on any course. Ironically it came just a week after Rolex where the XC was so fair while still remaining challenging. Those two courses were night and day in design.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670496]
Never do I say we don’t have a problem. I provided data, which no one seems to want. They just want to be outraged. Lots of different kinds of data. (Yes, CDC data.) Some day, if we want to come to peace we are going to have to decide what an acceptable result is. I never say these numbers are apples to apples, another poster claims that is possible, I disagree. I simply offer you information. You can spin yourselves around in circles calling people names and pointing fingers or you can get some numbers, set some goals and put some changes in place and see how they live up to those goals. Eliminate tables. OK. Reduce speeds. OK. But how are you going to determine if those changes are effective? You are going to have to use numbers. And if you make 2 changes at the same time you are never going to know which change impacted your results. Have your witch hunt/lynch mob. I love my horses, I love this sport, I love people who participate at the upper and lower levels and I don’t put my head in sand. I would like to work to move forward instead of talking about how no horse should ever be sold to an eventing home because that is just cruel.

I am going to say it one more time. Providing you with information doesn’t mean I think the data is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think eventing is perfect. It doesn’t mean I think we don’t have to improve. It means we need to quantify where we are and where we want to be. It gives us a basis for comparison. But everyone just wants to be angry and hateful. Do you think NASA scientists run around shouting at each other after a space shuttle accident? Don’t you think they know a mistake was made and everyone feels terrible over the loss of life. Don’t you think they attempt to identify the cause of the problem and solve it. Statistically space travel is off the charts in terms of risk. Childbirth is risky. Yet people choose to take these risks. Human beings will always take risks. Find ways to reduce the risks. Do it systematically.[/QUOTE]

You are wrong.
Your examples have nothing to do with eventing. If F1, Nascar, or WEC, would have taken your approach, their drivers would still die at a unacceptable rate.
Eventing is very lucky that it flies most of the time under the horizon, especially in the US. It is a very small and in the US unimportant sport.
That is rather good, because with its mentality, it would not survive the public outcry to stop the fatalities.

That’s why other very highly rated and extremely dangerous sports had to turn themselves up side down to stop fatalities.
When the F1 driver Bianchi got killed 2 years ago, there was world wide reporting and an instant change in the rules and regulations, to prevent such an accident to hopefully happen never again.
When Walden was killed in Indy racing by flying debris from a nother accident, instantly development of devices to prevent further accidents like this started, not just in Indy but all the other open cockpit racing classes.
When Schumacher got rather lucky in an accident, not injured, because the high noses of the cars made it possible, that they could ride up into cockpit, the rules were changed, the noses were droped. When K Bush hit the inside barrier at Daytona and broke his legs, all tracks had to install the Saver Barrier inside and so on and so.
They have a culture of safety and react instantly, even if the odds that that accident will happen again is rather low. They investigate instantly and go to work and fix it. That’s why those in the public eye sports are still around.

They do not come up with statistics that describe that live it self is dangerous, they take responsibility.
They provide a good show that hundreds of million watch, but they do not accept fatalities, serious injuries or the possibility of that.
If they see it they fix it, it actually does not have to happen, Michael Schumacher, drop the nose, close call.

They get it.

Sorry you do not get it, the sport does not get it, its about eventing fatalities, nothing else and the mentality, its just below 15 per what ever and more babies in the US die during birth. That does not cut it any more.
Eventing has to say no more, that’s it. Till it says that it, it has no support, should not have any, even from old farts like me, that did it for 40 some years and love it.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=tbchick84;8670686]
I don’t know of anyone who thought that about Vicarage Vee. Everyone I know was asking what the course designer was trying to prove by making something that demanded absolute perfection and how ridiculous it was. There’s no reason for a question like that on any course. Ironically it came just a week after Rolex where the XC was so fair while still remaining challenging. Those two courses were night and day in design.[/QUOTE]

The VV has been around a very long time and is so to speak an iconic jump of 4 star eventing. Does it make sense, no, not by today standards, could be improved.
Should be?

But than it has an option, not very time consuming.
That’s were the riders come in. As long as they do not make a stand and say stupid throw back of time long gone. Nothing will change and they will have a try at it and ignore the option.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670270]
I want to make a difference and I am not being a defeatist. Please note I also provided information about sports we participate in voluntarily. I am providing data. Child bearing is also voluntary and is much more risky than eventing. We can do better, yes. My point is that we are not barbarians with incredibly high levels of fatalities. We are living and every aspect of living has risk and involves death. Eventing is reducing its fatalities, the US is increasing its fatalities among childbearing women. It is perspective.[/QUOTE]

There is really something wrong with this reasoning. The fatalities in horse sports, most especially eventing is increasing not decreasing and, if you took the total population of the United States, death rates are increasing for women among certain age levels from suicide and heart attacks. Birth rates are down in general and cannot be factored into this discussion. Looking at birth deaths for women around the world and you will have another very disturbing statistic amongst the poorest, same for US. You cannot lump statistic together, just like bad apples, they will rot the entire bunch.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Ready To Riot;8664272]
My thought what the hind feet would catch you and you wouldn’t ever get out from under the horse. But I am no scientist. It’s just how it plays out in my head.[/QUOTE]

The movement of a horse and rider do not conform to algorithms. That is the problem with statistical science, oftentimes it does not correlate, most especially when one is using a computer to compute rather than physics and sliderules. Algorithms and it’s companion alter-ego, programmable software cannot do this job adequately, it is why so many buildings, cranes, and bridges are collapsing. We have lost the ability to read real science with the capability of human reason that is not measureable with a computer program or with algorithms for that matter. Mathematics is not a genuine science, it is faulty measurements at it’s best.

This is addressed more to Em and John than you, I was just utilizing your comment to illustrate why the confusion, hope it helps. My husband is a engineer with the USACE (Army Corps) and since he is older, and went back to school later in life to update his education and degrees, he is particularly sensitive to how totally insane the younger engineers are whose go to calculations for physical effects is almost always the handheld computer. Shocked and horrified are better descriptions. He was away from academia for better than 25 years and achieve a bachelor’s in Civil Engineering, honor’s and dean’s awards, an EIT exam, PE exam and then a master’s in geotechnical engineering in about 5 years. All while working part time, and moving under crisis conditions from Virginia to Washington State… I am still amazed at his insights.

[MNEventer]

[QUOTE=tbchick84;8670686]
I don’t know of anyone who thought that about Vicarage Vee. Everyone I know was asking what the course designer was trying to prove by making something that demanded absolute perfection and how ridiculous it was. There’s no reason for a question like that on any course. Ironically it came just a week after Rolex where the XC was so fair while still remaining challenging. Those two courses were night and day in design.[/QUOTE]

The course designer for Badminton, Giuseppe della Chiesa, is on record basically saying safety on x-c is an afterthought: “On cross-country day you hope everything goes well, but this is a high risk sport and that is something that is always there,” he says. “On the one hand you have the best horses and riders in the world, but on the other you are pushing the barriers. The risk is there. We should accept it and live with it. It is about risk-management not safety. If you want to be safe do not ride a horse across country.”

To use an oft-quoted example, driving a car has a certain amount of risk. But we don’t say “if you want to be safe do not drive a car”. We increase the safety standards and require that drivers not be impaired, which in turn makes cars relatively safe. We don’t shrug our shoulders and hope for the best.

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=MNEventer;8670848]
The course designer for Badminton, Giuseppe della Chiesa, is on record basically saying safety on x-c is an afterthought: “On cross-country day you hope everything goes well, but this is a high risk sport and that is something that is always there,” he says. “On the one hand you have the best horses and riders in the world, but on the other you are pushing the barriers. The risk is there. We should accept it and live with it. It is about risk-management not safety. If you want to be safe do not ride a horse across country.”

To use an oft-quoted example, driving a car has a certain amount of risk. But we don’t say “if you want to be safe do not drive a car”. We increase the safety standards and require that drivers not be impaired, which in turn makes cars relatively safe. We don’t shrug our shoulders and hope for the best.[/QUOTE]

Aaand he’s gone. Fired/retired who knows? At least as the XC course designer there.