WTF Are We Doing?

[Gry2Yng]

[QUOTE=Badger;8668956]
Thank you for posting kkj. I am with gnep thinking eventers ought to think about the issues you raise. More than a few of your points I have been mulling over myself the last several days. Riders get to evaluate the degree of risk they are willing to take on, but horses don’t, so on some level the horses dying from jumping errors (horse’s, rider’s, course designer’s, it doesn’t matter) is what troubles me the most. You raised the issue here:

And your arguments are helping me crystallize my own thoughts. Yes, absolutely, the rider AND the owner (be it individual or every member of a syndicate) who asked the horse to jump the fatal jump are responsible if the horse dies from attempting the jump. I completely agree. But the life the horse gets in exchange for the risk is something I consider. It comes down to quality of life over quantity. The vast, vast, vast majority of event horses, even at the upper levels, will not die on course. And for reasons others have reiterated, the life of many event horses is pretty darn spiffy and interesting and enjoyable compared to the lot of a whole lot of equines. In exchange for what, in the opinion of many eventers including myself, is a very good quality of day-in-day-out life, more risk it assumed and there is a chance that the quantity will be cut short. Each person has to make their own decision on that spectrum. And they also make it for their horses.

Coming down on the side of maximizing quantity with no regard to quality is something a lot of people do and I think it is cruel in its own way. Keeping a horse alive but in pain because you can’t bare to put it down=cruel. Sticking a horse (a herd animal evolved to spend its life outside in company covering many miles every day with all the variety and changes in scenery that come with that) in a stall or even a small pasture and never giving it variety and interest by riding out or changing its surroundings and routine, I find that cruel and I see a LOT of horses where that is all they get.

Eventers are willing to take on higher risk for themselves and their horses knowing that it is very, very likely that their horse is going to get a “good” quality of life and a long one. But they also are accepting a somewhat greater chance than in other sports that either or both life may be cut short, that the quantity of life may not be maximized.

Its an individual decision where on the spectrum of quality over quantity the best balance is, and how much a person will risk one to maximize the other. But as you and some people you know think eventers as a group are cruel, I and some people I know think that confining a horse to a life in a stall, a tiny paddock, and possibly moving around exclusively in a small ring with an often scared and/or frustrated rider as the only break from monotonous boredom is cruel. Or possibly a fate worse than death.

To each their own.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=IFG;8669641]
This is SO important. Although we do not have data recorders, many people are on course watching, who could be interviewed, including the fence judge. Often there are videos or pictures. To my knowledge, there has not been a centralized, official effort to gather and analyze these. As well, people, me included, are reticent to appear to criticize someone who has just suffered a catastrophic accident. The culture of eventing needs to change to use these accidents as a learning opportunity, rather than perceiving analysis of the accident to be critical of the rider.[/QUOTE]

Actually, those interviews are done, and information that can be obtained is actively sought. Perhaps not of every bystander but of the jump judge, stewards and other key witnesses. A detail report has to be prepared and submitted I believe by the Safety officer and TD. And my understanding is that private videos that can be obtained are also preserved with the report.

THAT information just isn’t shared with the public generally for many many MANY reasons.

[millerra]

Perhaps the point when listing numbers of other deaths isn’t a “look, these people (or horses) died too” isn’t a comparison as much as it is meant to say that things die everywhere doing even “safe” activities.

I am not minimizing the fatalities in eventing at ALL. However, the only certainty is that we all are going to die - doing something - even while sleeping.

Mistakes happen - the only thing we can do is try to minimize the consequence of the mistake with safety equipment and design. Let’s work on that instead of throwing stones.

[Gry2Yng]

Let me give you a statistic. Data. I have done the math at least 10x. You do it. Tell me your conclusion.

In the United States, the maternal death rate averaged 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births during the years 1979–1986, but then rose rapidly to 14 per 100,000 in 2000 and [B]17.8 per 100,000 in 2009. In 2013 the rate was [B]18.5 deaths per 100,000 live births, with some 800 maternal deaths reported.

At the FEI level 0.0058 fatal fall every 100 starters (1 fatal fall every17,317 starters).[/B][/B]

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8669899]
Actually, those interviews are done, and information that can be obtained is actively sought. Perhaps not of every bystander but of the jump judge, stewards and other key witnesses. A detail report has to be prepared and submitted I believe by the Safety officer and TD. And my understanding is that private videos that can be obtained are also preserved with the report.

THAT information just isn’t shared with the public generally for many many MANY reasons.[/QUOTE]

That I understand, but it would be helpful if they could share what they think caused the accident. Right now we’re only subject to rumors and speculation, but never an official report. NTSB releases all the evidence/info it feels is necessary when publishing its reports (and yes, some of it is VERY disturbing, especially the CVR audio), which ties into their recommendations to prevent future accidents like it from occurring. I am not saying USEA/USEF release videos/interviews/evidence/etc. they glean from safety investigations, but having some sort of report or at least an “idea” of why an accident occurred would be better than keeping people in the dark. Currently it’s very secretive, and that does not reassure the masses at all: the rumor mill and carefully worded press releases are the only sources of information, and it only makes for backlash from everyone.

[devvie]

http://www.horse-canada.com/team-ohanlon/how-do-i-even-begin-to-write-about-this/

To add to the discussion – some good voices in the comments section as well, and a lot of comment from experienced horsemen about what was good about the long format.

[Mozart]

You may say that kkj contributes nothing to this thread but I disagree. kkj says out loud what a lot of other riders think but won’t tell you. And if you don’t maintain the support of other disciplines who will fight with you when the IOC kicks eventing out of the Olympics?

I no longer support the sport. This was my first love, I had pictures of eventers taped above my desk at school to push me to study so I could get a good job and afford a horse to event. The first thing I bought when I got a job was an OTTB to event. I evented and I have officiated at a pretty high level. Used to be the president of my local eventing club.

Now? Maybe it is just that we live in an information age and we hear about every incident as soon as it happens. Maybe the courses are just gettng too technical and we have reached he limit of what we can ask horses to do. I do know that my tolerance for risk to the horses is way way down. Our culture has changed and will continue to change. Animals are no longer just the property of their owners to be used as they see fit. The acceptance of the deaths of animals used for sport will continue to decline. I personally feel the average eventing horse has a better lifestyle than the average show hunter but that is not going to count for much when sports are on the chopping block and sponsors are reconsidering where to put their money. If the general
public finds the sport abhorrent, sponsorship will dry up.

The fact that deaths are statistically declining is irrelevant to non riders and non eventers “oh, you kill less horses than you used to? How nice for you”
So you can say the opinions of non eventers is irrelevant but you would be sticking your head in the sand if you did.

And make no mistake, you can talk about vests all you want, but the public knows riders take risks and we are free to take those risks. What will kill the sport is horse deaths, when sponsors start to back off and international sport bodies cut it loose to divert attention from the other horse sports, because those are at risk too. And to be perfectly honest, I will not shed a tear if they do.

[Winding_Down]

@kkj;8669536

I did not leave eventing. With Eventing even if the rider is very qualified and does nothing cruel and cuts no corners, there is an unacceptable chance that that rider or horse is going to get itself killed. That to me is barbaric. To me that is unacceptable. To me anyone who mourns the loss for a second and then moves on as before is culpable.

So here is a 2 part question for you…

All horse sports, including dressage, have resulted in the death of a horse or rider at some point in time.

Tell me, what is the unacceptable chance level of serious injury (which I infer that eventing surpasses) to which you refer?

And… drum roll, what is the acceptable chance level of serious injury that you have set for riding sports generally? Obviously, your discipline of dressage has an acceptable level of risk of serious injury. What is it?

Numeric probability cutoff please. No sentences, let’s just see the actual % probability of serious injury cutoff. I want to know why other sports are excluded but eventing is included.

I am honestly intrigued at what your answer might be. Seriously .

[I]Hint: Part 2 of this question will be, “How did you arrive at your number?”

[/I]

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=Mozart;8670050]

The fact that deaths are statistically declining is irrelevant to non riders and non eventers “oh, you kill less horses than you used to? How nice for you”[/QUOTE]

This fact is highly relevant to me!

There is progress. It is not fast enough, but we are on the preferred trajectory.

[KellyS]

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8670032]
That I understand, but it would be helpful if they could share what they think caused the accident. Right now we’re only subject to rumors and speculation, but never an official report. NTSB releases all the evidence/info it feels is necessary when publishing its reports (and yes, some of it is VERY disturbing, especially the CVR audio), which ties into their recommendations to prevent future accidents like it from occurring. I am not saying USEA/USEF release videos/interviews/evidence/etc. they glean from safety investigations, but having some sort of report or at least an “idea” of why an accident occurred would be better than keeping people in the dark. Currently it’s very secretive, and that does not reassure the masses at all: the rumor mill and carefully worded press releases are the only sources of information, and it only makes for backlash from everyone.[/QUOTE]

Yes! This is really important.

It’s not just doing it, but getting the information out there so that people are reassured that this process is happening and can also provide feedback. Again, the attitude of “we know, but you don’t need to know aka it’s none of your business” isn’t going to fly for much longer. Especially when people needs answers about why riders and horses are dying.

Yes, death will happen anywhere, any time. But those within and outside of the sport need to feel that everything is being done to mitigate the risk so that it is low as possible. I don’t think that faith currently exists. Just the questions that have arisen since Jersey Fresh point to that fact. The queries about table jumps–regarding appropriate groundlines, how vertical the face is, and the horse’s perception of tables–are just a small example.

Mozart said it very well with the comment [I]Oh you’re killing less horses. How nice of you.

[/I]There is no justification for these deaths as it stands now. The sport is dangerous and those who participate in it acknowledge its risks. Using numbers to say “Well, death happens” or “The sport is killing less horses and riders than it used to” isn’t going to help in the long run. Only a very visible effort by our governing bodies and, perhaps, well recognized riders to demonstrate safety measures considered and taken will.

I am happy to contribute to studies but I need to know that information is going to be used. Right now, if the governing bodies aren’t listening, no amount of money dumped into scientific studies is going to help either unless the changes recommended are implemented.

[KellyS]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8670084]

I dare say this is getting a tad fun…[/QUOTE]

Really?

This conversation revolves around a recently dead mother and much loved dead horse, and you’re concerned about having “fun”?

[Gry2Yng]

Another fun fact, you are more likely to die from a snake bite or a slip and fall in the US than from FEI level eventing. You are also more likely to die due to firearms accident, a traffic fatality, boxing, grand prix auto racing motor bike racing, canoeing and hand gliding.

[Tucked_Away]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8669899]

THAT information just isn’t shared with the public generally for many many MANY reasons.[/QUOTE]

The organizations really, really need to hire (and listen to) some folks with training in crisis and risk communication.

I’m trying really hard to stay out of the rabbit hole of this discussion, but even if one things that eventing is on the right road (I don’t, and but if), it sucks goats in the communications department and is doing itself no favors as a result.

[JER]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670109]
Another fun fact, you are more likely to die from a snake bite or a slip and fall in the US than from FEI level eventing. [/QUOTE]

Except, of course, that you have to voluntarily enter the sporting competition known as FEI eventing. It is an intentional course of action. This is a big difference from a snake bite. While you might have a chance encounter with a dangerous snake in your environment (and usually, this means living in a habitat area of venomous snakes, which many of us in the US do not), you will never suddenly take a look around and realize that you are on an XC course in an FEI-level event.

Let’s not get bogged down in irrelevant statistics. It’s just a distraction from the very real, very distressing deaths of horses and riders in eventing.

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8670109]
Another fun fact, you are more likely to die from a snake bite or a slip and fall in the US than from FEI level eventing. You are also more likely to die due to firearms accident, a traffic fatality, boxing, grand prix auto racing motor bike racing, canoeing and hand gliding.[/QUOTE]

:no:

Except we aren’t talking about those sports. And how about we get rid of the defeatist attitude and try to make a difference, in a positive way.

[FrittSkritt]

[QUOTE=KellyS;8670099]

I am happy to contribute to studies but I need to know that information is going to be used. Right now, if the governing bodies aren’t listening, no amount of money dumped into scientific studies is going to help either unless the changes recommended are implemented.[/QUOTE]

Jon Holling wrote a post yesterday denouncing the critics on the board/Facebook who feel TPTB weren’t doing enough for the sport, and accused them of “hiding behind” their computer screens and not taking action. This is just one of many posts written by professionals/ULRs who are taking this stance of “you don’t understand, and until you do, stop criticizing us and the officials.” To me, it’s a glaring example of what is wrong here: there is a HUGE disconnect between the professionals/officials, and amateurs.

Just look around Facebook – every other comment/share of his post is from an ULR saying things like, “It’s disappointing to see the things people are writing and complete misinformation they are presenting as ‘facts’. Completely unproductive, if the “powers that be” didn’t have to spend so much time correcting the misinformation thrown out there they would have more time to work on the actual issues” [Lauren Kieffer], “The list is short as is the credit you [Jon Holling] are all getting today from people who know no better” [Kylie Lyman], “Stop making inflammatory and often ill informed comments from the sidelines. To say that riders don’t care about this is absolutely wrong. We lost our friends…human and equine. Just think about that before you turn us into monsters on social media” [Sara Kozumplik], etc.

I’m not trying to single those three out to make them look like bad people. They’re not. They’re just as rattled and concerned as we are. But at the same time, it just shows me that the ULRs are so on the defensive against the Negative Nellys that they aren’t willing to work WITH those who are TRYING put in good ideas, the ones who are donating money to studies, the ones that are volunteering their time/knowledge/effort to said studies (Gnep, RAYers, LAZ, JER, etc.). We want our voices heard, and the inflammatory comments coming from the NNs are drowning us out. Yet it’s easy to have your opinion and suggestions taken into consideration when you’re a 3 or 4* rider but not as so when you’re Susie Beginner Novice.

And this is why things will not change until we can come together as a group and get rid of this “us versus them” mentality I’ve been seeing all over the place. There can’t be dialogue and resolution until both sides acknowledge that. I wrote this in my response to JH’s post, but I honestly doubt anyone will read it. I am just an amateur that doesn’t know any better, after all. :sigh:

[Tucked_Away]

@JER;8670132

Except, of course, that you have to voluntarily enter the sporting competition known as FEI eventing. It is an intentional course of action. This is a big difference from a snake bite.

Accident statistics also tend to use total population as the denominator. Maybe Gry2Yng has a special snake-bite exposure dataset? If those are CDC or similar numbers, though, it’s an apples-to-oranges comparison; you’re looking at fatalities from starters and snake-bites from a random 100,000 citizens who may or may not have even left their house on a given day (or live in an area with venomous snakes, or so on). The amount of time one spends exposed is relevant as well. If 2% of horses running XC (for a total of, say, an hour or two) every year drop dead and 2% of horses standing in their fields (for a total of, say, 4-24 hours per day times 365) do the same, that doesn’t actually mean that standing in a field is as risky as running XC.

Point: low-incidence events can still cause unacceptable levels of injury and death. We work to improve treatment for rare cancers, for example.

Point: statistics are information, not absolution. Reasonable people can disagree about what constitutes an acceptable baseline level of “stuff happens.” But one activity having a lower rate than another does not, in itself, mean the first doesn’t have a problem.

[kkj]

[QUOTE=KellyS;8670102]
Really?

This conversation revolves around a recently dead mother and much loved dead horse, and you’re concerned about having “fun”?[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much. Honestly, I am a pretty sensitive and empathetic person and I was sick to my stomach when a friend posted a picture of her with her little one on Facebook. So tragic and sad and unacceptable. I don’t think any of this is “fun” in any way.

Mozart I am with you.

Of course not everyone can be lumped together and there are a lot of reasonable people out there participating in the various disciplines.

However, I have a huge problem with the attitude of a lot of eventers both on this board and all over out there right up to the highest levels of the sport. I take big issue with Denny Emerson saying something to the effect of event horses are treated better than people in third world countries and David O’Connor saying that event horses could choose to stop eventing at any point. Both of these arguments are ridiculous and absurd to me and neither of them in any way justify the dangers that are assumed for these UL event horses and their riders.
Along the line of Denny Emerson’s assertion would it be OK for my husband to beat me because I would still have a far better life than I would in a country where female genital mutilation was the norm? Fricking absurd. It is not OK for an UL event rider to risk their horse’s life for an adrenaline rush, fame, prestige, a spot on the team or whatever just because some OCD dressage person does not turn their horse out or some callous HJ person drugs their horse or whatever abuse you wish to insert here. This line of reasoning is ridiculous.

In my opinion Eventing at the UL by itself not in relation to anything else and even if it existed in a perfect vacuum is too dangerous. (Feel the same way about bullriding by the way but bull riding is not held up as some prestigious Olympic sport and the bulls generally don’t get killed in competition.) UL eventing is unreasonable where it is and should not be permitted to continue as such.

Now I don’t know the statistics for how many dressage horses or show jumpers die in competition, but I can tell you that I don’t hear about them. It is not a common worry for we people who do these sports when we enter at X or approach that first show jumping fence.

And once again I am not at all OK with people from any other discipline abusing horses in any way, but that is totally independent of the fact that in my opinion eventing at a high level is on its face too fricking dangerous and shows a reckless disregard for the participant’s lives as well as the live’s of their poor horses.

With these prevalent cavalier attitudes in eventing and the animosity towards other horse people who take issue with it and the rate of fatalities that has been permitted to continue on and on, it is a matter of time until this sport fades away or is shut down more abruptly.

[TRIPLEBAR]

Ok I may get flamed here but here’s a go.
I like watching eventing, I am not an eventer, I considered it at one point but I decided I was too chicken to gallop to a solid object. I stay in my jumper sandbox.
I admire the discipline it takes to train for 3 different phases and be successful at all of them. What I do not admire is the risk modern UL eventing seems to place on riders and their horses. The questions that are posed to the riders and horses are so very technical with minimal to no room for error on the part of the horse or the rider. BNRs are still human and horses are fallible. Not every rider is Michael Jung and watch, any day he will make a mistake on course too.
The Vicar’s V? That was/is insanity, and for the sake of a couple of seconds. The long way around seemed much safer and a fairer question for the horse and the rider.
Yes there are deaths in every horse sport. It seems we hear more often about it from UL Eventing as a whole though way more often then say, Show Jumping. Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t remember the last rider who was seriously injured/died in UL Show Jumping. the last horse I really remember that died in UL Show Jumping was Hickstead (again, correct me if I am wrong). You just don’t see these memorials for people and horses who died on course with regularity like you see for Eventing. It twists my gut every. single. time. My heart breaks for the families and the children of those who have passed this way. It begs the question what if they scratched that day? Would they still be here with us?
It happens EVERY show season for Eventing. Not even the TB race people seem to have these problems and people pick on them all of the time!

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=KellyS;8670102]
Really?

This conversation revolves around a recently dead mother and much loved dead horse, and you’re concerned about having “fun”?[/QUOTE]

No it doesn’t.