WTF Are We Doing?

If you don’t event and wouldn’t ever sell a horse you have bred to an eventer and have little interest in the sport, what are you doing here?

I’m not being smarmy here, either. Event horses have, generally, a very good life. It is not uncommon to see an upper level eventer compete into the late teens, and at the highest levels seeing a horse under 8 years old is extremely uncommon. Yes, some of them do suffer catastropic injuries in the sport. This is a very small number.

If you have no vested interest in the sport why are you here wasting everyone’s time? There are PLENTY of other causes to take up for horse welfare that are far more pressing than eventing.

Go champion some quarter horse futurity forums and ask them why the horses are bred so horribly that many of them are on trucks to mexico before they hit 4 years old. An eventing horse at 4 years old is living a life of leisure, being jumped minimally and being ridden forward on the flat into contact and carefully trained because the upper level eventers know it will take generally EIGHT TO TEN MORE YEARS of careful training and care until they are a contender for the upper levels.

Head yourself over to the big lick forums and take up your cause there.

Journey on up to the dressage forums and ask them why they feel it’s healthy to trap a horse in a stall for 23 hours a day (one hour of turnout, one hour of work) and ask why they think so many dressage horses suffer catastrophic breakdowns that are kept hush hush.

Go visit some hunter shows and try to peek inside the stall curtains everywhere with overflowing sharps containers, good luck trying to go home without picking up the smell of DMSO.

Arabian shows and Saddlebred shows - i will not get into the horrors that go on here.

Why are you jumping on the “eventing is dangerous” bandwagon if you have absolutely nothing to do with the sport?

[QUOTE=Badger;8668956]
Thank you for posting kkj. I am with gnep thinking eventers ought to think about the issues you raise. More than a few of your points I have been mulling over myself the last several days. Riders get to evaluate the degree of risk they are willing to take on, but horses don’t, so on some level the horses dying from jumping errors (horse’s, rider’s, course designer’s, it doesn’t matter) is what troubles me the most. You raised the issue here:

And your arguments are helping me crystallize my own thoughts. Yes, absolutely, the rider AND the owner (be it individual or every member of a syndicate) who asked the horse to jump the fatal jump are responsible if the horse dies from attempting the jump. I completely agree. But the life the horse gets in exchange for the risk is something I consider. It comes down to quality of life over quantity. The vast, vast, vast majority of event horses, even at the upper levels, will not die on course. And for reasons others have reiterated, the life of many event horses is pretty darn spiffy and interesting and enjoyable compared to the lot of a whole lot of equines. In exchange for what, in the opinion of many eventers including myself, is a very good quality of day-in-day-out life, more risk it assumed and there is a chance that the quantity will be cut short. Each person has to make their own decision on that spectrum. And they also make it for their horses.

Coming down on the side of maximizing quantity with no regard to quality is something a lot of people do and I think it is cruel in its own way. Keeping a horse alive but in pain because you can’t bare to put it down=cruel. Sticking a horse (a herd animal evolved to spend its life outside in company covering many miles every day with all the variety and changes in scenery that come with that) in a stall or even a small pasture and never giving it variety and interest by riding out or changing its surroundings and routine, I find that cruel and I see a LOT of horses where that is all they get.

Eventers are willing to take on higher risk for themselves and their horses knowing that it is very, very likely that their horse is going to get a “good” quality of life and a long one. But they also are accepting a somewhat greater chance than in other sports that either or both life may be cut short, that the quantity of life may not be maximized.

Its an individual decision where on the spectrum of quality over quantity the best balance is, and how much a person will risk one to maximize the other. But as you and some people you know think eventers as a group are cruel, I and some people I know think that confining a horse to a life in a stall, a tiny paddock, and possibly moving around exclusively in a small ring with an often scared and/or frustrated rider as the only break from monotonous boredom is cruel. Or possibly a fate worse than death.

To each their own.[/QUOTE]

This is a beautiful post, thank you very much.

[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8669251]
If you don’t event and wouldn’t ever sell a horse you have bred to an eventer and have little interest in the sport, what are you doing here?

I’m not being smarmy here, either. Event horses have, generally, a very good life. It is not uncommon to see an upper level eventer compete into the late teens, and at the highest levels seeing a horse under 8 years old is extremely uncommon. Yes, some of them do suffer catastropic injuries in the sport. This is a very small number.

If you have no vested interest in the sport why are you here wasting everyone’s time? There are PLENTY of other causes to take up for horse welfare that are far more pressing than eventing.

Go champion some quarter horse futurity forums and ask them why the horses are bred so horribly that many of them are on trucks to mexico before they hit 4 years old. An eventing horse at 4 years old is living a life of leisure, being jumped minimally and being ridden forward on the flat into contact and carefully trained because the upper level eventers know it will take generally EIGHT TO TEN MORE YEARS of careful training and care until they are a contender for the upper levels.

Head yourself over to the big lick forums and take up your cause there.

Journey on up to the dressage forums and ask them why they feel it’s healthy to trap a horse in a stall for 23 hours a day (one hour of turnout, one hour of work) and ask why they think so many dressage horses suffer catastrophic breakdowns that are kept hush hush.

Go visit some hunter shows and try to peek inside the stall curtains everywhere with overflowing sharps containers, good luck trying to go home without picking up the smell of DMSO.

Arabian shows and Saddlebred shows - i will not get into the horrors that go on here.

Why are you jumping on the “eventing is dangerous” bandwagon if you have absolutely nothing to do with the sport?[/QUOTE]

this is is how I feel. WHy jump on the “eventing is dangerous” band wagon if have absolutely nothing to do with the sport? Quoted because it bears repeating,

[QUOTE=kkj;8668171]
I am not an event rider, but I know a lot of you. I am one of those people who have turned away event riders when they want to come and try a horse I have for sale. Sorry this horse is not for sale to you.

Eventing is a hell of a lot more dangerous than dressage.

The average person does not know squat about eventing. I have a strong belief that if they did they would not deem the rate of injuries and deaths as acceptable. I see the writing on the wall. It is only a matter of time before Eventing fades and dissappears. I am hoping this happens in my lifetime.[/QUOTE]

Oh my. You sound as though you have a lot of anger pent up in there. I am sorry. It must hurt to be you.

There is no need to “defend” eventing here just as there is no reason for you to “defend” dressage on those forums discussing the abuse that a minority of trainers impose on their horses.

If I were a horse, I’d much rather be running free, doing trot/gallop sets in the early morning mist, than being confined for 23 hours per day, with the only relief being subjected to a rider forcing my nose to my chest and pounding me with long rowels, emulating the BNR who practice Rolkur.

And that is partly in jest because we all know that those riders are in a small minority.

kkj is so enraged about a sport she has chosen to leave, and because she has left she must feel and express her hatred.

What a horrible feeling that must be.

I know who kkj is, based on the tone and style of her writing. There is no gray, it is all either black or white… Dare to disagree and…

[QUOTE=NMK;8668672]
KKJ at least had the guts to post this. To ignore her, and other like her, is our own peril. Look at Greyhound racing. Donate, help the Safety Committee. Do something more than tell her she’s wrong. Show her how we aim to get it right.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure I would characterize an anonymous poster on a name calling rant as someone with “guts”. I would call those who really love this sport and want to make it as safe as possible, who are trying to make a positive difference by contributing to safety research the real superstars. If I want to listen to a bigoted, destructive tirade about how bad everything is then I’ll just watch the election coverage.

[QUOTE=riderboy;8669379]
I’m not sure I would characterize an anonymous poster on a name calling rant as someone with “guts”. I would call those who really love this sport and want to make it as safe as possible, who are trying to make a positive difference by contributing to safety research the real superstars. If I want to listen to a bigoted, destructive tirade about how bad everything is then I’ll just watch the election coverage.[/QUOTE]

Yes! And at least those SOB’s put a face and name to their tirades.

The poster who is “ranting” above is actually someone who goes by other names on these forums, switching among them sometimes to support each other.

Conversations with oneself…

Let me get this straight. We LL riders are supporting our UL riders who are barbaric… because they run their horses at solid large obstacles. So we’re awful.

But a LL dressage rider is supporting UL dressage riders who ride Rollkur and thats okay?

Kettle Meet Pot.

If you want to give constructive criticism then please do, and you somewhat have, with dis tasteless responses and uncalled for remarks about riders in general. Be an adult and have a educated conversation without putting salt in the wound that is already stinging.

Well, I called it “guts” because she had to expect a big backlash, coming over here. Her posting shows a point of view that we cannot ignore. She just happened to be the one to put it on a forum. I have heard other such criticism over the years, and a lot lately. One DQ here won’t even teach us USEA types.

If nothing else, it did prompt me to make my quarterly donation to the Fence Study.

[QUOTE=riderboy;8669379]
I’m not sure I would characterize an anonymous poster on a name calling rant as someone with “guts”. I would call those who really love this sport and want to make it as safe as possible, who are trying to make a positive difference by contributing to safety research the real superstars. If I want to listen to a bigoted, destructive tirade about how bad everything is then I’ll just watch the election coverage.[/QUOTE]

Yep!

[QUOTE=kkj;8668975]
Hey Badger I don’t really disagree with anything you said except in weighing the risk and benefits I believe the highest level of eventing is too much of a risk. My dressage horse by the way get to go on trail rides, live outside, eat lots of grass etc etc. I do think that a life with no turnout, drugs, only arena work etc is cruel. Conversely I have witnessed many event riders passing off the lame broken ones to the lower levels or dumping them on Craig’s list etc. People from all disciplines do crap like that. And thank you Romahorse that is one of the points I am trying to get across. At the end of the day if you choose to enter and ride your horse in a competition and it dies on the course country course, you are responsible.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=kkj;8668914]Ha Ha. This one really made me laugh. I rode jumpers for years and did take a horse I trained from unstarted to jumping well around 4’6" fences out on a cross country course when I was younger and dumber. The horse would have been quite game to go over the intermediate options, but I steered only to the novice ones. I had skill just not the guts. I admire the guts of a lot of you “crazy eventers” just think there is too often more guts than sense.

I also believe in cross training and have done some jumping with all of my dressage horses. I just can’t jump at the place I am at now. Cavellitis are OK but no jumping per the insurance.[/QUOTE]

Anyone can be who they want,have what they want, and has done anything they want on the internet. Your boasting and long rants about how your horse lives in a palace means nothing to many people. For all you know I could be a purple unicorn typing this. Focus on the point not bragging to the internet.

KKJ…

I hear you. I wish others here, instead of piling on the attacks regarding what you wrote, would realize that the attitude of “if you’re not an eventer, you’re not qualified to add your input” is exactly what is going to be the end of this sport. They need to listen to those on the outside because if eventing loses support from both inside and outside the world of horses, it’s done.

Your thoughts are pretty much in line with what many horse people who do not event are saying. They don’t want eventers buying or riding their horses. They don’t understand why the sport “seems” to be okay with these deaths. And the defensive attitude, shown here, that rises to the surface when the sport is questioned, just makes it look like the current culture–that explains away death as part of the risk of riding and inherent to eventing itself–is condoned.

I am a later convert to eventing, joining the sport in 2000. My husband got me into it, and he competed through the FEI one-star level (doing the classic long format events). I competed through the preliminary level. My event horse died in 2007 and his replacement has made it clear he’s a dressage pony. His younger brother looks destined to be my eventer.

However, I have questions about supporting this sport, at any level. Will the audience here now pile on me because I’m now considered a traitor to the sport for wondering this?

My husband and I have never been a fan of how eventing has developed since the loss of the long format. We both feel that the endurance aspect helped keep the sport safer…riders had to spend more time in the saddle for conditioning, unfit horses (and riders) were often caught out before going on to Phase D, eventing was not the big business that it is now, in which the pros need to ride 5 to 7 horses an event to make ends meet. And who are, yes, forced to make decisions based on how they financially affect the bottom line.

While eventing has injured and killed horses and riders for decades, even if the rate was the same, or is the same, does that mean it’s okay now? Is it wrong for some of us to say maybe this loss of life for SPORT is not okay?

Maybe I look out at my pony boys and wonder if I could live with myself if they died doing a sport that I knew was intrinsically dangerous? What if it was my husband? I see the thread about “level creep” and wonder how a tiger trap fence at BN level, filled with brush, in a light-to-dark setting, with a drop, that caused multiple falls and refusals at a competition last weekend is justified at that level? And yet, there are people on that thread defending it.

Eventers can huddle together and defy the outside masses that ask about these deaths. But remember the feelings felt when upper level riders told us that we can’t comment on their tack (ala Meredith Little) because we aren’t ULRs and, therefore, qualified to comment. Or when the FEI/USEF has patted you on the shoulder and told you to go away when you’ve voiced concerns about this sport.

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Trying to belittle them or make them feel like their opinions don’t count is short sighted and foolish. Instead, we should be saying, how do we move forward to make a difference? To change this view of the sport? Because, if this view isn’t changed, we won’t have a sport to argue about, whether the relative few involved in it like it or not.

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8669303]
Oh my. You sound as though you have a lot of anger pent up in there. I am sorry. It must hurt to be you.

There is no need to “defend” eventing here just as there is no reason for you to “defend” dressage on those forums discussing the abuse that a minority of trainers impose on their horses.

If I were a horse, I’d much rather be running free, doing trot/gallop sets in the early morning mist, than being confined for 23 hours per day, with the only relief being subjected to a rider forcing my nose to my chest and pounding me with long rowels, emulating the BNR who practice Rolkur.

And that is partly in jest because we all know that those riders are in a small minority.

kkj is so enraged about a sport she has chosen to leave, and because she has left she must feel and express her hatred.

What a horrible feeling that must be.

I know who kkj is, based on the tone and style of her writing. There is no gray, it is all either black or white… Dare to disagree and…[/QUOTE]

I did not leave eventing. I was never a eventer. I went to one novice event in my younger days when I was looking for some fun. It was fun but I did worry too much about my expensive jumper getting hurt.
I really don’t care if you attack me or rip on me. So many of you just don’t get it. There are really a ton of horse people out there who feel the way I do. Can you see the distinction between Eventing and dressage and showjumping? (These are the only sports I am concerned with here because they are Olympic sports. Sports we esteem as worthy in my opinion). With Eventing even if the rider is very qualified and does nothing cruel and cuts no corners, there is an unacceptable chance that that rider or horse is going to get itself killed. That to me is barbaric. To me that is unacceptable. To me anyone who mourns the loss for a second and then moves on as before is culpable.
I do not support trainers who cane horse in jumping or who get caught giving their horses cocaine or dressage trainers who do rolkur or any other abusive practices. Dressage by the way has come under much scrutiny and people have been sanctioned ie) Andreas Helgstrand. And I do not have a short memory for anyone who I associate with abuse, cheating etc ie) I refuse to cheer for McClain Ward even if he is the best chance the US has at winning something. I do not only take issue with UL eventing, but I do find UL eventing as it stands to me the most barbaric Olympic sport. Just do. Attack me all you want. I could care less.

Completely agree. Many eventers are horrified at what the sport has become, and many of us are withdrawing our support of the sport.

Just a couple of points… as a LL eventer.

First, a horse did die in a dressage arena - a few years ago at Wayne. It was horrific and rare but it does happen.

Second, I am always more worried as one who has to haul a lot for training as well as competing, of having my horse seriously injured or killed while driving down the highway at 70 mph than jumping.

Third, as a mother, I am SO happy my children are not interested in eventing at the high levels. I would be so worried I would be in the barn, w/ my headphones on, waiting for them to return. And my children do football and gymnastics, so hardly safe sports.

Finally, 20 people per year fall of cruise ships every year. Life isn’t safe. Let’s make eventing as safe as we can - study jump design and crash vests. But ultimately cr%% happens no matter what.

[QUOTE=KellyS;8669531]

Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Trying to belittle them or make them feel like their opinions don’t count is short sighted and foolish. Instead, we should be saying, how do we move forward to make a difference? To change this view of the sport? Because, if this view isn’t changed, we won’t have a sport to argue about, whether the relative few involved in it like it or not.[/QUOTE]

But its ok for KKJ to say nasty things about eventers?
KKJ does make good points, but if KKJ left it at points and not at pointing fingers and grouping us all into one nasty category we would probably listen. Instead KKJ makes it sound like we are just down right terrible people and know nothing better. If KKJ’s posts could be pure information and less emotion with no belittling she would be taken more seriously, but instead she has to make many condescending comments in her posts to have people put their backs up.

KKJ would’ve received more respect had s/he come on here and been less rude and ignorant to other posters and how we treat our loved ones.

S/he speaks as though they take the utmost care of their horse and no eventer can compare. Its down right ignorant on his/her part. Clearly there is passion in their post, but there is a ton of passion on this thread and everyone wants to make a difference. Again constructive criticism is more effective than saying absurd stupid things that get you nowhere but called a troll.

One more point…

Listing how many people or animals die doing other activities or sports isn’t helpful to the conversation unless those numbers are cited within context. For example, how many people die on cruise ships versus how many people go on cruises to arrive a percentage that could be compared to eventing. Otherwise, they appear as a poor justification as to why eventing is okay “as is” without any effort to make it safer.

Which leads me to ask, why isn’t an incident response team dispatched when a horse or rider dies on course? Whether convened by an international or national governing body based on event type (FEI vs USEF), this team would very openly investigate what happened, make recommendations that could be implemented to avoid future incidents, and release a report to the public. This information gathering would go a long way toward (1) creating a database of numbers and facts to use for evaluating incidents, (2) making the sport safer, and (3) assuring the public, both within and outside the horse world, that a visible effort is being made to avoid future deaths.

To get back to the point on hand, why could not the events sponsored by huge International companies ask their sponsors to make a safety donation of (by their standards) an infinitesimal amount of (say 50k) to eventing safety research in the name of the winning rider? That wouldn’t be a large amount of money in the great scheme of things, but it would help.

Thank you Kellys. There has to be more event people like you out there.

[QUOTE=KellyS;8669584]

Which leads me to ask, why isn’t an incident response team dispatched when a horse or rider dies on course? Whether convened by an international or national governing body based on event type (FEI vs USEF), this team would very openly investigate what happened, make recommendations that could be implemented to avoid future incidents, and release a report to the public. This information gathering would go a long way toward (1) creating a database of numbers and facts to use for evaluating incidents, (2) making the sport safer, and (3) assuring the public, both within and outside the horse world, that a visible effort is being made to avoid future deaths.[/QUOTE]

Someone on another thread (or maybe it was this one) mentioned we need to have some sort of NTSB-like review of fatal (or near-fatal) falls. I think this is a great idea, but unfortunately, we have no good way of capturing data. We’re fortunate to have Flight Data Recorders and Cockpit Voice Recorders on aircraft to help piece together what happened, but with horses we’re lucky if some bystander with a video camera captures the incident. If there was an efficient (cost and implementation-wise) method of video recording every fence from different angles, it would be immensely helpful in determining the causes of these accidents. Otherwise we have to rely on witnesses and photos, both of which aren’t the most reliable in terms of accident reconstruction.

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8669633]
Someone on another thread (or maybe it was this one) mentioned we need to have some sort of NTSB-like review of fatal (or near-fatal) falls. I think this is a great idea, but unfortunately, we have no good way of capturing data. We’re fortunate to have Flight Data Recorders and Cockpit Voice Recorders on aircraft to help piece together what happened, but with horses we’re lucky if some bystander with a video camera captures the incident. If there was an efficient (cost and implementation-wise) method of video recording every fence from different angles, it would be immensely helpful in determining the causes of these accidents. Otherwise we have to rely on witnesses and photos, both of which aren’t the most reliable in terms of accident reconstruction.[/QUOTE]

This is SO important. Although we do not have data recorders, many people are on course watching, who could be interviewed, including the fence judge. Often there are videos or pictures. To my knowledge, there has not been a centralized, official effort to gather and analyze these. As well, people, me included, are reticent to appear to criticize someone who has just suffered a catastrophic accident. The culture of eventing needs to change to use these accidents as a learning opportunity, rather than perceiving analysis of the accident to be critical of the rider.