[QUOTE=kkj;8668953]
You’re right. I do not support any FEI dressage rider or trainer that I have seen do something barbaric. There are plenty of them out there. Usually almost always they just make the horses miserable though and not dead.[/QUOTE]
Well that isn’t a very great argument. You prefer suffering over death for the horse? Hmm…
The only reason anything is alive is because it isn’t dead.
I have to agree with kkj on one point. No matter what equine endeavor I pursue, but particularly eventing, it is MY choice to involve my horse. If my horse falls & is injured or dies trying to negotiate a jump at a competition I entered him in, it is MY fault, MY responsibility. Not the FEI, the USEA, the course builder, the footing. I put my horse in a potentially harmful situation so I can participate in a sport. He didn’t die doing something he loved to do, he died serving me. I event at the lower levels, & I do what I can to minimize the risks. But,for me, I don’t see enough people asking themselves this question, “Is it worth my life, or my horse’s life, to participate in this sport?”. Because as we’ve seen this weekend, this year, for the 3 decades I’ve been involved in eventing the possibility of death is real. Ask yourself the question. Don’t be in denial.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668953]
You’re right. I do not support any FEI dressage rider or trainer that I have seen do something barbaric. There are plenty of them out there. Usually almost always they just make the horses miserable though and not dead.[/QUOTE]
Please go back and read your post where you hold LL eventers accountable for the actions of all UL eventers. You do not get to throw responsibility on us and then duck out yourself.
Hey Badger I don’t really disagree with anything you said except in weighing the risk and benefits I believe the highest level of eventing is too much of a risk. My dressage horse by the way get to go on trail rides, live outside, eat lots of grass etc etc. I do think that a life with no turnout, drugs, only arena work etc is cruel. Conversely I have witnessed many event riders passing off the lame broken ones to the lower levels or dumping them on Craig’s list etc. People from all disciplines do crap like that. And thank you Romahorse that is one of the points I am trying to get across. At the end of the day if you choose to enter and ride your horse in a competition and it dies on the course country course, you are responsible.
The highest levels of eventing are too much of a risk for me, too, personally, and I actually do quite a bit of dressage. But I think where we differ is that I can still respect the decision of well prepared riders to take on that risk for themselves and their horses. I wasn’t sure of that yesterday, but as I process all this that is where I am right now.
[QUOTE=skydy;8668960]
Well that isn’t a very great argument. You prefer suffering over death for the horse? Hmm…[/QUOTE]
Lets keep it straight, if eventing would have developed a culture of safety, that would consider a fatality as unacceptable, instead of brushing them away and than just return to business as usual, the sport would not been seen like that.
What happens in the barn, very tough to police any how, has nothing to do what happens on a show.
There is probably tons of rather cruel folks in all of equestrian sports.
This is about eventing and the culture of the sport to marginalize its casualties, which than produces views like KKJ.
She has a point.
The reaction to her posts, as aggressive and negative they are, are not reflective, they just are a reflex, bite, bite.
Lets give her the benefit of a serious horse person and not just some outsider, who knows a horse just from a peting zoo.
Given that deaths in eventing have gone down over the past 10 years, Gnep, how do you conclude that the culture of our sport is to marginalize casualties? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t give serious consideration to how things can be improved, both in times of crisis and otherwise.
[QUOTE=Gnep;8668901]
The reaction to kkj’s post is actualy typical for eventing and that is the head in the sand.
She got a point, doesn’t she.
Image and how quiet a few people in the equestrian community view the sport.
We consider us as the best of the and don’t ya dare to tell us we are not.
I thought the post was interesting and worth to think about.[/QUOTE]
I agree. She is really only saying what we have been discussing in all these threads, only taking it to the extreme. Something needs to change to make UL eventing safer. Yes, your horse can die in a paddock accident, and we all know Silva had a fall that resulted in TBI, but eventing is statistically the most dangerous equestrian activity to both horse and rider.
And she is correct in pointing out that we LL riders make UL eventing possible. I would think that is obvious. We make up the majority of entries that support the sport so that the UL riders have a place to compete. We pay our dues to USEA. I don’t ride with a BNR, but my trainer does compete at the 3* level. She was in the CCI3* at Jersey–I am so glad that I saw on Facebook she was clear before I opened up the Jersey Fresh thread, since the rider wasn’t immediately identified. She trains with Boyd. And I pay $50 to Boyd every 2-3 weeks to use his XC course.
I don’t currently compete in recognized trials, but I do compete at Fair Hill and Plantation, so I help keep their recognized and FEI events going.
So yes, we LL riders certainly make UL eventing possible. The question is what, if anything, can we smurfs do to force changes to make the sport safer at all levels.
[QUOTE=Gnep;8668983]
Lets keep it straight, if eventing would have developed a culture of safety, that would consider a fatality as unacceptable, instead of brushing them away and than just return to business as usual, the sport would not been seen like that.
What happens in the barn, very tough to police any how, has nothing to do what happens on a show.
There is probably tons of rather cruel folks in all of equestrian sports.
This is about eventing and the culture of the sport to marginalize its casualties, which than produces views like KKJ.
She has a point.
The reaction to her posts, as aggressive and negative they are, are not reflective, they just are a reflex, bite, bite.
Lets give her the benefit of a serious horse person and not just some outsider, who knows a horse just from a peting zoo.[/QUOTE]
Did you read post #768? My post.
If you are referring to me, in your petting zoo comment you are assuming much.
[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8669005]
Given that deaths in eventing have gone down over the past 10 years, Gnep, how do you conclude that the culture of our sport is to marginalize casualties? I don’t know anyone who doesn’t give serious consideration to how things can be improved, both in times of crisis and otherwise.[/QUOTE]
You know I go back in the sport, were I still had pampers on. The sport has made huge progress. I say it again 100 times saver than it used to be.
No question about.
But that is not what some folks like me are talking about.
It is the mentality of the sport, how we explain away the fatalities.
The sport just explains them away.
Other very high risk sports have gotten the message, it is not inherited that people in that sport die. We have a nother problem, our tool is an animal, that dies, too, more frequent than us
What folks like me want to see, no tolerance for a fatality. Even that that is not a 100% possibility.
But as long as we just do business as usual the sport will get to it in 20 years and it will be dead by than.
The sport made progress, but it never said, that’s it, no more and all resource will be put into the NO MORE program.
That’s not what is happening.
So that’s why I have to mull over kkj’s and do think she addresses one of the most vulnerable points of the sport.
Image
We should think about that, too.
She is a horse person, we should respect that, at least I think so
[QUOTE=skydy;8669008]
Did you read post #768? My post.
If you are referring to me, in your petting zoo comment you are assuming much.[/QUOTE]
Do you need attention ?
[QUOTE=Gnep;8668983]
Lets keep it straight, if eventing would have developed a culture of safety, that would consider a fatality as unacceptable, instead of brushing them away and than just return to business as usual, the sport would not been seen like that.
What happens in the barn, very tough to police any how, has nothing to do what happens on a show.
There is probably tons of rather cruel folks in all of equestrian sports.
This is about eventing andt the culture of the sport to marginalize its casualties, which than produces views like KKJ.
She has a point.
The reaction to her posts, as aggressive and negative they are, are not reflective, they just are a reflex, bite, bite.
Lets give her the benefit of a serious horse person and not just some outsider, who knows a horse just from a peting zoo.[/QUOTE]
Is the “culture” of Eventing the same in Europe? Or do they take a different view of these tragedies? It would seem to me that between the Americans, Brits, Germans, Kiwis, Australians etc. all of whom have experienced rider/horse deaths in Eventing that perhaps someone would reject the status quo of which you speak.
Thank you for this post.
[QUOTE=kcmel;8669006]
I agree. She is really only saying what we have been discussing in all these threads, only taking it to the extreme. Something needs to change to make UL eventing safer. Yes, your horse can die in a paddock accident, and we all know Silva had a fall that resulted in TBI, but eventing is statistically the most dangerous equestrian activity to both horse and rider.
And she is correct in pointing out that we LL riders make UL eventing possible. I would think that is obvious. We make up the majority of entries that support the sport so that the UL riders have a place to compete. We pay our dues to USEA. I don’t ride with a BNR, but my trainer does compete at the 3* level. She was in the CCI3* at Jersey–I am so glad that I saw on Facebook she was clear before I opened up the Jersey Fresh thread, since the rider wasn’t immediately identified. She trains with Boyd. And I pay $50 to Boyd every 2-3 weeks to use his XC course.
I don’t currently compete in recognized trials, but I do compete at Fair Hill and Plantation, so I help keep their recognized and FEI events going.
So yes, we LL riders certainly make UL eventing possible. The question is what, if anything, can we smurfs do to force changes to make the sport safer at all levels.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=kkj;8668953]
You’re right. I do not support any FEI dressage rider or trainer that I have seen do something barbaric. There are plenty of them out there. Usually almost always they just make the horses miserable though and not dead.[/QUOTE]
Ah, so a life of misery is better than the risk of dying on course? That is what you are arguing. You REALLY think it is better for a horse to go to a “barbaric” dressage trainer than an upper level eventing home? Are you really that blinded by your irrational hate for the sport (that you have no experience in) that you would rather your horse suffer instead of having a good life but an increased risk of injury or death during competition?
If that is the case, you could also argue sending your horse to a big lick TWH barn to get sored on a daily basis would also be a better life for the animal than an upper level eventing home.
I personally would never sell to someone who wanted to do the bigger hunter classes on the A circuit. I don’t think I would ever want my horse to go advanced, but I’d still choose the risk of death over the risk of weekly quieting routines.
Maybe if UL eventing tragedys continue to happen, people will stop volunteering at events and others will boycott as spectators. The only one to show up with the riders should be a priest.
[QUOTE=riderboy;8669058]
Is the “culture” of Eventing the same in Europe? Or do they take a different view of these tragedies? It would seem to me that between the Americans, Brits, Germans, Kiwis, Australians etc. all of whom have experienced rider/horse deaths in Eventing that perhaps someone would reject the status quo of which you speak.[/QUOTE]
That is the problem, this culture of denial, is part of the eventing culture world wide and that is the problem.
In Europe they are under great pressure, but they do not address it, properly.
Its like the responses to kkj, same ol’
I questioned a Olympic rider, because he gave a loud mouth comment about a course before he rode it and than after he rode it and gave a nother loud mouth comment
You talking about a dress down. It even got worse when I question his horses conditioning in a 4 in England, which lead to an injurie, video analyses, frame by frame. The sucker made it barely home, not because of the injurie, but it was running on borrowed air. We are talking about dead as it goes
It is the same mentality
Its eventing, that has a problem and they deny the problem, even more, because it is so successful and makes so much money. Especially in Europe and UK.
The US is like Australia, back country.
Austrailas or New Zelands riders are European, that’s were they live. So discard them from their native countries.
[QUOTE=Gnep;8669048]
Do you need attention ?[/QUOTE]
Not particularly. I asked because you quoted me.
You do.
Thank you Gnep as you get it. I am certain I come off as extreme but this is in part because I have witnessed this eventing “attitude” for 35 plus years now. I feel like I have to be extreme to be heard. I know most of you don’t agree with me but I know a lot of good horse people from other disciplines do. I don’t want Eventing in the Olympics. I don’t want to see people or horses die. I think the risks outweigh the benefits. If the sport could be made safe enough… but I don’t see that happening. The attitude I get from Eventers on this forum and elsewhere is part of the problem. Horrible eventing death happen, people reflect and mourn for a moment, they point out that it is someone else’s fault, they rationalize it, call it bad luck, they may post something ridiculously corny like “dear horse that died for me I will meet you in heaven to jump the clouds”, then they put it back of mind and keep doing the risky behavior again until the next tragedy happens. It just keeps going on like this every so long repeating like a broken horror record. To me it is sick. Those of you who cannot see that this is sick or who attack me and call me PETA, ignorant, naive, misguided you are part of the problem of this culture that has allowed this to go on like this for way too long.
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