KKJ at least had the guts to post this. To ignore her, and other like her, is our own peril. Look at Greyhound racing. Donate, help the Safety Committee. Do something more than tell her she’s wrong. Show her how we aim to get it right.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668585]
Thanks Blackwly. I agree all equestrian sports are dangerous. I also think that it is a risk that a lot of the general public would not take. I know any time I am riding a horse or working around it, I am taking a risk. In my risk assessment, I am OK with the risk that I am taking riding dressage on a talented, sane, sound animal, while I have 30 plus years of good training and skills and wear a helmet. I could get myself killed. It is very unlikely though. For 8 years I was at the same very good dressage barn. In those 8 years only two people got bucked off. One off of a young crazy mare and one lady without the best skills off a horse that spooked. Neither of these resulted in anything but bruises. For the last 4 years I have been at another very good dressage barn and only one person has been bucked off- a lady who was rehabbing a horse. She got some bruises and that is it. Before this barn was a dressage barn it was an eventing barn with a world class trainer. The barn owner told me there were a ton of spills, broken bones injuries etc. The barn owner was very happy to get dressage people in because her insurance went way down. No jumping = cheaper insurance. Also there is a reason that insuring a dressage horse is cheaper than insuring a HJ or Event horse.
Maybe most accidents don’t happen in competition, but how often do you read a headline about a dressage rider who is killed in competition. In eventing some of the highest level riders are getting killed. That is a huge problem. Some of the best horses are getting killed. Again a huge problem. You guys can deflect this all back on me but I stand by everything that I said.[/QUOTE]
But I can think of 3 headline stories of dressage riders with MAJOR TBIs…and two were wearing a helmet and only walking at the time. I know of 3 people killed just handling their horses…not riding. All experienced…all just doing run of the mill things…turning out, loading on a trailer…hand grazing. These are just ones that I know off the top of my head.
Yes…eventing is dangerous. Those who choose to participate in the sport know this. We also must and are continuing to work to make it safer. But please don’t come here and lecture other horsemen on how much safer it is to do dressage. The only time I’ve been hospitalized (for a week) was when I was doing dressage on a schooled horse (before I had taken up eventing).
I’ve been in many barns with tons of accidents where I was the only event rider…and only relatively safe one. I own my own barn now…with mostly eventers. The fact that we jump did NOT impact my insurance one bit. And knock wood…the only accident we have had with injuries was when a more novice rider fell off her been there and done that horse when he spooked at a rabbit (while she was walking).
You have made a personal choice…but it seems to me that you also really do not comprehend the risks you take.
But riding FEI dressage is safer than upper level eventing. It just is. How many FEI dressage horses have you heard about that have died during competition? How many FEI dressage riders have lost their lives in competition?
The insurance at the place where I keep my horse did go down once there was no more jumping on site. This is a fact.
Any who rides or works around horses could get kicked in the head, trampled etc. Any horse could break a leg in turnout or even his stall. And I could get hit by a bus crossing the street. This again is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is people who assume a risk for themselves and their horses while competing at Upper Level Eventing. There are way too many deaths of horses and riders doing this level of this sport. It is unreasonable to me and to many people I know who yes would not have the guts or inclination to bring it up. There is a reason we dressage people call you event people “crazy eventers”.
If you eventers don’t have a problem with the risk that upper level eventers take of being maimed or killed, I suppose that is just what it is. I don’t think it is OK to assume that risk for horses. I do think it is barbaric. Many Olympic level riders and other upper level riders have had at least on horse die on course or have to be put down. I don’t know of any Olympic dressage riders that had their horse die in competition or had to be put down because the horse broke it’s leg or neck or back in competition. This is barbaric. This is unacceptable. You can not reason it away with saying that horse sports are dangerous, horse can get killed a lot of other ways etc etc. The “but for” cause of these horses death is the running on an upper level cross country course. Whether that same horse would have died two weeks later in a trailer accident or 20 years later of old age is irrelevant. You can attack me and call me misinformed, an idiot, etc etc etc. I really don’t care. Anyone whose horse has died because they chose to run it on a difficult cross country horse in my opinion is responsible, culpable even for that horse’s death. Likewise, if I don’t lock the gate and my horse gets in the grain room and eats grain all night and dies of founder, or I drive like a moron with my horse in the trailer and get him killed, or I turn him out in a barbed wire field, or if my horse is ill or lame and I ride him anyway and ignore all the signs and he dies or become irreparably injured, or any other stupid thing, I am responsible. These deaths of these upper level event horses are not that uncommon and they are foreseeable, and unnecessary. There is guilt to be assigned.
And I take huge issue with people who tell me that their horses love their job or that they chose to do it or that if they didn’t want to do it at any point they could chose not to. This is idiotic anthropomorphism and just a lame way for people not to take the responsibility or blame that they should. A horse is a stupid animal, that cannot appreciate the risk. A horse needs to be protected like it is a young child and it’s caregiver is responsible for not putting that horse in unnecessarily dangerous circumstances for whatever joy ride that person says the horse loves doing.
Also it doesn’t matter if you love your horse and give him carrots every day, pay for a custom fit saddle, and body work, and a psychic who confirms your horse loves cross country most of all and the more difficult the better, and your horse has a great irrigated field, and other horses out there are in a dark dingy stalls with an ill-fitting saddles and drugged constantly with drugs that fly under the radar of the drug testers so that horses can show week after week at HJ shows, if you run your horse in UL eventing and he dies on course you are responsible for that death. Saying he had a short but great life or he went out doing what he loved best does not lessen your responsibility.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668782]
But riding FEI dressage is safer than upper level eventing. It just is. How many FEI dressage horses have you heard about that have died during competition? How many FEI dressage riders have lost their lives in competition?
The insurance at the place where I keep my horse did go down once there was no more jumping on site. This is a fact.
Any who rides or works around horses could get kicked in the head, trampled etc. Any horse could break a leg in turnout or even his stall. And I could get hit by a bus crossing the street. This again is not what I am talking about. What I am talking about is people who assume a risk for themselves and their horses while competing at Upper Level Eventing. There are way too many deaths of horses and riders doing this level of this sport. It is unreasonable to me and to many people I know who yes would not have the guts or inclination to bring it up. There is a reason we dressage people call you event people “crazy eventers”.
If you eventers don’t have a problem with the risk that upper level eventers take of being maimed or killed, I suppose that is just what it is. I don’t think it is OK to assume that risk for horses. I do think it is barbaric. Many Olympic level riders and other upper level riders have had at least on horse die on course or have to be put down. I don’t know of any Olympic dressage riders that had their horse die in competition or had to be put down because the horse broke it’s leg or neck or back in competition. This is barbaric. This is unacceptable. You can not reason it away with saying that horse sports are dangerous, horse can get killed a lot of other ways etc etc. The “but for” cause of these horses death is the running on an upper level cross country course. Whether that same horse would have died two weeks later in a trailer accident or 20 years later of old age is irrelevant. You can attack me and call me misinformed, an idiot, etc etc etc. I really don’t care. Anyone whose horse has died because they chose to run it on a difficult cross country horse in my opinion is responsible, culpable even for that horse’s death. Likewise, if I don’t lock the gate and my horse gets in the grain room and eats grain all night and dies of founder, or I drive like a moron with my horse in the trailer and get him killed, or I turn him out in a barbed wire field, or if my horse is ill or lame and I ride him anyway and ignore all the signs and he dies or become irreparably injured, or any other stupid thing, I am responsible. These deaths of these upper level event horses are not that uncommon and they are foreseeable, and unnecessary. There is guilt to be assigned.
And I take huge issue with people who tell me that their horses love their job or that they chose to do it or that if they didn’t want to do it at any point they could chose not to. This is idiotic anthropomorphism and just a lame way for people not to take the responsibility or blame that they should. A horse is a stupid animal, that cannot appreciate the risk. A horse needs to be protected like it is a young child and it’s caregiver is responsible for not putting that horse in unnecessarily dangerous circumstances for whatever joy ride that person says the horse loves doing.
Also it doesn’t matter if you love your horse and give him carrots every day, pay for a custom fit saddle, and body work, and a psychic who confirms your horse loves cross country most of all and the more difficult the better, and your horse has a great irrigated field, and other horses out there are in a dark dingy stalls with an ill-fitting saddles and drugged constantly with drugs that fly under the radar of the drug testers so that horses can show week after week at HJ shows, if you run your horse in UL eventing and he dies on course you are responsible for that death. Saying he had a short but great life or he went out doing what he loved best does not lessen your responsibility.[/QUOTE]
Geez, how do you really feel? I don’t know what’s more wrong with your post. The hatred, the lumping everyone into one big blob of barbarians, or your ignorance of the sport.
my ignorance? Time article illustrating riders who have had horses die completing. Exerpt, “Riders and owners reject any suggestion that they don’t care about their horses and say that eventing horses lead very privileged lives. “People in third-world countries should be as lucky as to be an upper-level event horse,” says Emerson. Most in the eventing community also believe that horses are willing participants. “I really do think that the horses choose to do this,” says David O’Connor, the president of the U.S. Eventing Association and individual gold medalist at the 2000 Sydney Olympics. “They might not have chosen to start doing it, but they really can choose not to do it at any time.”” Enough said!
This happens every time there’s a tragedy in Eventing. Someone wanders over from PETA, dressage or H/J and piles on while everyone is still in mourning. To call Phillipa “crazy irresponsible” and those who have children Eventing “child abusers” is exceptionally low.
read the article yourself. http://olympics.time.com/2012/07/28/equestrian-eventing-the-olympics-most-dangerous-sport/
[QUOTE=kkj;8668822]
my ignorance? Time article illustrating riders who have had horses die completing. Exerpt, “Riders and owners reject any suggestion that they don’t care about their horses and say that eventing horses lead very privileged lives. “People in third-world countries should be as lucky as to be an upper-level event horse,” says Emerson. Most in the eventing community also believe that horses are willing participants. “I really do think that the horses choose to do this,” says David O’Connor, the president of the U.S. Eventing Association and individual gold medalist at the 2000 Sydney Olympics. “They might not have chosen to start doing it, but they really can choose not to do it at any time.”” Enough said![/QUOTE]
Go take your dressage out to a XC course and try to force it to jump a fence. After you’ve had your smug butt deposited on the ground, feel free to come back to us and tell us whether or not you can force a 1200lb animal to jump a solid obstacle in the middle of a field.
This is but one snippet that is easily turned logically right back at you as a person involved with horses at any level.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668782]
I don’t know of any Olympic dressage riders that had their horse die in competition or had to be put down because the horse broke it’s leg or neck or back in competition. This is barbaric. This is unacceptable. You can not reason it away with saying that horse sports are dangerous, horse can get killed a lot of other ways etc etc…[/QUOTE]
Are you prepared to give your sport up when you come to know that horses have actually broken down, collapsed or died during a dressage competition?
You are standing inside the same glass house with all other equestrians. (Some people think that upper level dressage is cruel). Throwing stones at “crazy eventers” isn’t all that productive in a thread populated with people who share some of your concerns and are trying to find solutions.
The reaction to kkj’s post is actualy typical for eventing and that is the head in the sand.
She got a point, doesn’t she.
Image and how quiet a few people in the equestrian community view the sport.
We consider us as the best of the and don’t ya dare to tell us we are not.
I thought the post was interesting and worth to think about.
So KKJ - you are not hear to offer sympathy or provide suggestions for improvements. You are just hear to tell us about your moral and ethical superiority and to spit on the elite of our sport. That would be my definition of a troll.
My head is not in the sand. But there is NOTHING constructive in her posts.
[QUOTE=tbchick84;8668836]
Go take your dressage out to a XC course and try to force it to jump a fence. After you’ve had your smug butt deposited on the ground, feel free to come back to us and tell us whether or not you can force a 1200lb animal to jump a solid obstacle in the middle of a field.[/QUOTE]
Ha Ha. This one really made me laugh. I rode jumpers for years and did take a horse I trained from unstarted to jumping well around 4’6" fences out on a cross country course when I was younger and dumber. The horse would have been quite game to go over the intermediate options, but I steered only to the novice ones. I had skill just not the guts. I admire the guts of a lot of you “crazy eventers” just think there is too often more guts than sense.
I also believe in cross training and have done some jumping with all of my dressage horses. I just can’t jump at the place I am at now. Cavellitis are OK but no jumping per the insurance.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668782]
And I take huge issue with people who tell me that their horses love their job or that they chose to do it or that if they didn’t want to do it at any point they could chose not to. This is idiotic anthropomorphism and just a lame way for people not to take the responsibility or blame that they should. A horse is a stupid animal, that cannot appreciate the risk.
.[/QUOTE]
It’s not anthropomorphism to observe that some horses love to run and jump, the way some dogs love to chase sticks, and some cats love to chase tennis balls. Do the horses understand the nature of competition and silver cups? No. Do horses understand that they are running and jumping? Of course they do.
There’s a counterpart to anthropomorphism, and it’s assuming that every animal doesn’t enjoy anything but eating and resting. (there are some equines who are wired that way - they make good leadline ponies).
Read the article in the current issue of the Chronicle about the horse who just won the Maryland Hunt Cup - apparently he runs around and jumps in and out of fields for fun when he’s home. (I believe it too - I had a pony wired exactly like that).
I also think that horses, to some extent, get the risk. They may not comprehend broken bones versus torn ligaments. They don’t understand euthanasia. But they do understand that sometimes a jump won’t turn out well for them (and when they believe that to be the case, they stop :))
[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8668904]
So KKJ - you are not hear to offer sympathy or provide suggestions for improvements. You are just hear to tell us about your moral and ethical superiority and to spit on the elite of our sport. That would be my definition of a troll.
My head is not in the sand. But there is NOTHING constructive in her posts.[/QUOTE]
Um well if maybe one person thinks twice about riding UL or supporting UL event riders than I have done something constructive. If one person does not sell his or her horse as an upper level event prospect, then I think I have done something constructive. I feel sick to my stomach terrible for anyone who is injured badly or killed around horses and I feel sick to my stomach bad for the horses as well. I feel a lot of sympathy but it is time for a wake up call people. Blaming course designers etc is just not fair. Anyone who participates in the sport should look in a mirror. This is a sport which at its highest most elite level is dangerous to an unacceptable level. It has been so for as long as Ican remember. I do believe there are terrible evil horse people in all disciplines including dressage and some FEI riders are cruel for sure. I have witnessed horrors. I have also met event people who take great care of their horses stay in the LLs and act what I deem to be in the horses’ best interest.
If there were evidence that horses or riders were getting killed in dressage competition with anywhere near the frequency of the tragedies happening in eventing, you can damn well be certain, I would retire my horse to a nice pasture and take up mountain biking. Again look inward and stop deflecting to me. Stop rationalizing it. Stop acting like every time it happens it is some awful unforeseeable tragedy or anomaly.
[QUOTE=kkj;8668914]
Ha Ha. This one really made me laugh. I rode jumpers for years and did take a horse I trained from unstarted to jumping well around 4’6" fences out on a cross country course when I was younger and dumber. The horse would have been quite game to go over the intermediate options, but I steered only to the novice ones. I had skill just not the guts. I admire the guts of a lot of you “crazy eventers” just think there is too often more guts than sense.
.[/QUOTE]
So you have engaged in the barbaric style of riding you loathe so much. Tell me, are you capable of writing a post that does not contain an insult? Laced between all your higher than thou remarks are some bits of insight, but it’s just too much BS to sift through, so I’ll be skipping your posts going forward. My head is also not in the sand. I have watch many an UL rider pull up mid XC because the horse just didn’t have it that day. Some make bad decisions as with any discipline, but they are the few not the many. To lump them all into the latter category as you continue to do, is neither fair nor logical.
Thank goodness no one at the upper levels is abusing dressage horses. I have never seen anyone in that discipline do anything barbaric. No blue tongues, no bloody mouths, no spur marks or tight nosebands. But of course you don’t do that. You don’t support UL dressage riders by the fact that you ride lower level dressage or sell talented horses to people that do these things or give calming drugs to receive the scores they desire. I believe someone else mentioned glass houses.
FWIW, we don’t have 4’6" fences out on intermediate xc. At the 4* level a brush fence is allowed to be 4’7", a solid obstacle is maxed at 3’9". So, please, share with us this place where you were jumping 4’6" cross country fences and choosing to take the novice options.
[QUOTE=tbchick84;8668927]
So you have engaged in the barbaric style of riding you loathe so much. Tell me, are you capable of writing a post that does not contain an insult? Laced between all your higher than thou remarks are some bits of insight, but it’s just too much BS to sift through, so I’ll be skipping your posts going forward. My head is also not in the sand. I have watch many an UL rider pull up mid XC because the horse just didn’t have it that day. Some make bad decisions as with any discipline, but they are the few not the many. To lump them all into the latter category as you continue to do, is neither fair nor logical.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. The problem is one that if someone does make a bad decision it is more likely to be catastropic if it during UL cross country. I am sure that a lot of UL event riders will pull up if they feel something is not right. I am sure no one wants to hurt the horse. However, even if they are the very best most empathetic rider and have the most amazing world class skills and a horse that is super duper competent in their job, and the course is going picture perfect, these deadly accidents are happening to these people at an unacceptable rate. There is no fault in the riding, the training, the preperation and still these accidents are occuring over and over. Every time I read such a headline I feel sick about it for days. Just merely entering a cross country course in the UL itself is unreasonable as far as I am concerned. If that reasoning makes me higher than thou then I am going to cement my butt to this pedestal. I still stand behind everything I said. And I don’t think riding cross country at Novice level on a well trained, fit, athletic horse with a more than capable rider is barbaric at all. The problem with it is that it supports the UL of the sport which is so dangerous.
[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8668904]
So KKJ - you are not hear to offer sympathy or provide suggestions for improvements. You are just hear to tell us about your moral and ethical superiority and to spit on the elite of our sport. That would be my definition of a troll.
My head is not in the sand. But there is NOTHING constructive in her posts.[/QUOTE]
I am a bystander only, and have been for a long while, but I did find some food for thought in KKJ’s posts. I do not agree with all of KKJ’s thoughts, but I have found myself (as a spectator) cringing more and more when I watch UL eventing.
I know that some breeders of event horses have misgivings about the fairness of the questions being asked of the horses.
The problem needs to be addressed properly. “Ban it” is really not the answer when there are problems that can be addressed.
It seems it is a question of willingness, either of the PTB to commit to meaningful study or for an ULR revolt (as happened with the race car drivers) that will make or break the future of eventing.
I would like to see the problem of human and equine fatalities taken very seriously. It is obvious to most people that safety must be addressed,now, and that most people who care about the sport agree that it can be done.
[QUOTE=Gry2Yng;8668941]
Thank goodness no one at the upper levels is abusing dressage horses. I have never seen anyone in that discipline do anything barbaric. No blue tongues, no bloody mouths, no spur marks or tight nosebands. But of course you don’t do that. You don’t support UL dressage riders by the fact that you ride lower level dressage or sell talented horses to people that do these things or give calming drugs to receive the scores they desire. I believe someone else mentioned glass houses.[/QUOTE]
You’re right. I do not support any FEI dressage rider or trainer that I have seen do something barbaric. There are plenty of them out there. Usually almost always they just make the horses miserable though and not dead.
Thank you for posting kkj. I am with gnep thinking eventers ought to think about the issues you raise. More than a few of your points I have been mulling over myself the last several days. Riders get to evaluate the degree of risk they are willing to take on, but horses don’t, so on some level the horses dying from jumping errors (horse’s, rider’s, course designer’s, it doesn’t matter) is what troubles me the most. You raised the issue here:
[QUOTE=kkj;8668782]
Also it doesn’t matter if you love your horse and give him carrots every day, pay for a custom fit saddle, and body work, and a psychic who confirms your horse loves cross country most of all and the more difficult the better, and your horse has a great irrigated field, and other horses out there are in a dark dingy stalls with an ill-fitting saddles and drugged constantly with drugs that fly under the radar of the drug testers so that horses can show week after week at HJ shows, if you run your horse in UL eventing and he dies on course you are responsible for that death. Saying he had a short but great life or he went out doing what he loved best does not lessen your responsibility.[/QUOTE]
And your arguments are helping me crystallize my own thoughts. Yes, absolutely, the rider AND the owner (be it individual or every member of a syndicate) who asked the horse to jump the fatal jump are responsible if the horse dies from attempting the jump. I completely agree. But the life the horse gets in exchange for the risk is something I consider. It comes down to quality of life over quantity. The vast, vast, vast majority of event horses, even at the upper levels, will not die on course. And for reasons others have reiterated, the life of many event horses is pretty darn spiffy and interesting and enjoyable compared to the lot of a whole lot of equines. In exchange for what, in the opinion of many eventers including myself, is a very good quality of day-in-day-out life, more risk it assumed and there is a chance that the quantity will be cut short. Each person has to make their own decision on that spectrum. And they also make it for their horses.
Coming down on the side of maximizing quantity with no regard to quality is something a lot of people do and I think it is cruel in its own way. Keeping a horse alive but in pain because you can’t bare to put it down=cruel. Sticking a horse (a herd animal evolved to spend its life outside in company covering many miles every day with all the variety and changes in scenery that come with that) in a stall or even a small pasture and never giving it variety and interest by riding out or changing its surroundings and routine, I find that cruel and I see a LOT of horses where that is all they get.
Eventers are willing to take on higher risk for themselves and their horses knowing that it is very, very likely that their horse is going to get a “good” quality of life and a long one. But they also are accepting a somewhat greater chance than in other sports that either or both life may be cut short, that the quantity of life may not be maximized.
Its an individual decision where on the spectrum of quality over quantity the best balance is, and how much a person will risk one to maximize the other. But as you and some people you know think eventers as a group are cruel, I and some people I know think that confining a horse to a life in a stall, a tiny paddock, and possibly moving around exclusively in a small ring with an often scared and/or frustrated rider as the only break from monotonous boredom is cruel. Or possibly a fate worse than death.
To each their own.
