What do you think certified vests are going to change? Do you even know what the difference are in certified vs: non certified vests? And honest question - not being snarky here… When was the last time you used a vest personally to ride a horse?
Having ridden in both I prefer a “non certified”. I’ll let you answer my questions before I explain to you why.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8675579]
I still want an answer. Why has not USEA proposed a final, emergency rule to the USEF for certified vests along with helmets in dressage? Why has USEF not proposed a rule to the FEI for the same thing? If safety is really so important to either body?
That is certainly not a Luxurious, Grand change. BE does such things in a very short time.[/QUOTE]
i don’t presume to speak for the USEA but the short answer is money, and push back from members on expenses. I remember the hue and outcry here when vests became mandatory, and again when certifications that were going to require people to spend the $$ to buy new ones. Plus, vests, unless they are thorax cages, will do nothing to prevent crush injuries. It’s nice to prevent bruises and perhaps cracked ribs, but that’s not what everyone here is up in arms about.
What at does the membership really want and at what cost? Because if you have to buy a vest at $1500 to ride BN, is that prudent and fair? Did anyone else notice that the top two finishers at Rolex did not wear air vests? Do we replace tables on XC? Are competitors willing to pay more in entry fees across the board to finance this, because it means retiring a lot of fences and building new ones.
I, for one, am a huge believer in safety. But if we want safety we have to pay for the research and the implementation. Talking is only useful if something comes of it.
I could be mistaken, but I have a feeling people would be more likely to give money (and/or time) when they know that it will be used to make changes in some sort of concrete way… Not just to fund the development of more committees within committees that might come up with some suggestions by 2019.
I have personally said I’d be fine with a moderate increase in entry fees to support the building of safer fences.
Perhaps the $1500 vests could only be mandatory at Prelim and up? But as far as a beta 3 certified vest goes, those cost less than a pair of high end xc boots, an Ecogold saddle pad, or a CO helmet, at least one of which I see on about 90% of BN riders. But the lower cost vests don’t have any status .(Not that a certified vest is going to protect in a rotational fall).
[QUOTE=retreadeventer;8675536]
How luxurious we all are with comments, advice to one another, and epistles of grand notions.
I’m with LAZ. Get giving. I’m with Denny. Get volunteering.[/QUOTE]
best.post.yet
https://www.facebook.com/Hollingeventing/posts/1721437038136315?pnref=story
There is ONE more place that can aid the safety effort.
The EQUESTRIAN MEDICAL SAFETY ASSOCIATION.
EMSA is a third party, independent clearing house of fall and incident data, not just from eventing but across all disciplines, including racing. Some of the members have (and still do) serve on the USEF safety committee.
In the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE, I serve on their board.
We are looking at preparing a peer review paper for epidemiology of rider injuries, similar to what has been done in Australia.
But, like others have stated, money is needed. I don’t like begging, but for those who feel that USEF or USEA are not doing enough, here is another place to consider. It is run by horsemen and women but also includes vets, engineers, and even academics.
Reed
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8675764]
best.post.yet
https://www.facebook.com/Hollingeventing/posts/1721437038136315?pnref=story[/QUOTE]
And see my reply. The vast majority of pros/ULRs on FB continue to talk down to us with posts like these, which just creates further discord among those of us who want to help, yet are simply dismissed as being uneducated because we haven’t ridden at the upper levels.
[QUOTE=RAyers;8675895]
There is ONE more place that can aid the safety effort.
The EQUESTRIAN MEDICAL SAFETY ASSOCIATION.
EMSA is a third party, independent clearing house of fall and incident data, not just from eventing but across all disciplines, including racing. Some of the members have (and still do) serve on the USEF safety committee.
In the interest of FULL DISCLOSURE, I serve on their board.
We are looking at preparing a peer review paper for epidemiology of rider injuries, similar to what has been done in Australia.
But, like others have stated, money is needed. I don’t like begging, but for those who feel that USEF or USEA are not doing enough, here is another place to consider. It is run by horsemen and women but also includes vets, engineers, and even academics.
Reed[/QUOTE]
Reed,
That’s a great idea. The link is: http://emsaonline.net/
There is a donate link on the website (I just looked). It’s not eventing specific but it applies to all horse incidents so is a great pool of information to draw on.
I already committed to the Frangible fence study for this schooling date but I may split the next one between EMSA and the Equestrian Aid Foundation.
if anyone wants to help support a rider injury fund there is The Equestrian Aid Foundation as well.
There are many ways to help–it’s not just financial. Get involved with your local clubs or barns–offer (and follow through) to aerovate, stain, check footing, or anything else that help our sport.
[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8675898]
And see my reply. The vast majority of pros/ULRs on FB continue to talk down to us with posts like these, which just creates further discord among those of us who want to help, yet are simply dismissed as being uneducated because we haven’t ridden at the upper levels.[/QUOTE]
Perception is such a funny thing–I didn’t get that at all from Jon’s post. I got a sense of frustration, the same frustration that I feel as a lower level coach, of a lot of people that would rather criticize and complain than help.
I know a lot of people on here quietly go about helping, but there are a lot of people that post that only talk. That’s the same on Facebook and other social media, I’m sure.
We all need to quit looking to be offended and start looking to pull together. It’s easy to get offended (I know this in myself, lol) but it is not particularly productive.
[QUOTE=kcmel;8675756]
Perhaps the $1500 vests could only be mandatory at Prelim and up? But as far as a beta 3 certified vest goes, those cost less than a pair of high end xc boots, an Ecogold saddle pad, or a CO helmet, at least one of which I see on about 90% of BN riders. But the lower cost vests don’t have any status .(Not that a certified vest is going to protect in a rotational fall).
As a lower level rider on a budget I buy things on sale and if I happen to be wearing something fashionable I got it off EBay. People seem to buy the vest they are comfortable in, and that is in their price range. A $1500 vest would force me to quit the sport. Both because it wouldn’t be financially prudent and because if it costs that much to keep Mr safe I’m in the wrong sport.
[QUOTE=LAZ;8675982]
Perception is such a funny thing–I didn’t get that at all from Jon’s post. I got a sense of frustration, the same frustration that I feel as a lower level coach, of a lot of people that would rather criticize and complain than help.
I know a lot of people on here quietly go about helping, but there are a lot of people that post that only talk. That’s the same on Facebook and other social media, I’m sure.
We all need to quit looking to be offended and start looking to pull together. It’s easy to get offended (I know this in myself, lol) but it is not particularly productive.[/QUOTE]
True. I see it as the ULRs being offended because they seem to only see the negative posts and assume we’re all that way… then the amateurs feel offended for being categorized as such. It’s a vicious cycle.
However, I really don’t think they realize that many of us are trying to help, have tried to speak up, only to be patted on the shoulder and be told, “Well, what do you know? Have you ridden at the 3* level? No? Okay, come back when you have.” Maybe they’re not doing it intentionally, but it certainly feels that way from a LL amateur perspective.
[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;8675898]
And see my reply. The vast majority of pros/ULRs on FB continue to talk down to us with posts like these, which just creates further discord among those of us who want to help, yet are simply dismissed as being uneducated because we haven’t ridden at the upper levels.[/QUOTE]
Kind of ironic. The ULRs are telling us not to tell them how to do their jobs, yet they are trying to do ours (i.e., statistician, epidemiologist, materials researcher, accident investigator, etc.).
[QUOTE=LAZ;8675982]
We all need to quit looking to be offended and start looking to pull together. It’s easy to get offended (I know this in myself, lol) but it is not particularly productive.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The level of vitriol on these threads of late has been unsettling to say the least. For the most part, I have quit following them for that reason.
[QUOTE=IFG;8676010]
Agreed. The level of vitriol on these threads of late has been unsettling to say the least. For the most part, I have quit following them for that reason.[/QUOTE]
Dear God, you call what’s going on here vitriol?
You should read the comments to political articles on The Guardian’s website. Or the Bernie people on any website.
[QUOTE=LAZ;8675121]
Not a snark–it’s a comment, based on all your suggestions. You’re somebody, too, and somebody needs to do something, right? We’re all somebodies, and we all need to put our money and efforts where our mouths are.
Lesley calls for getting rid of tables until such a time as they can be made frangible (or, more realistically, events can afford to replace them with frangible devices and train the staff to install them and repair them safely as they deploy).
This does not happen within 3 days of Lesley’s blog post. If you want it to happen within that time frame, offer to go out to your local event, build something to take the place of that particular jump or sponsor a jump to replace it that a jump builder can make.
I have a great deal of confidence in some of the folks that are on the safety committee (including Lesley, who is a friend) but I also get the logistics of all of this, which is why I get behind the frangible jump fund raising by donating half my schooling fees from my schooling day. But I can’t do that until I earn them, and I can’t do that until people show up and pay for schooling, and I can’t do that until I get back the bookkeeping done to deposit and then send the funds. So I get it that change is not Right This Minute, even if I wish it could be.
If half the people that bitch actually got behind and supported things (not just this thing, but lots of things) more would get done. That’s the way of the world, sadly.[/QUOTE]
Bravo!
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676027]
Dear God, you call what’s going on here vitriol?
You should read the comments to political articles on The Guardian’s website. Or the Bernie people on any website.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I call it vitriol. Is there a sliding scale for vitriol? Does more anger on one topic make the anger on another topic less angry? Not being snarky. I am being serious. The idea that giving a horse a home with an eventer is butchery is vitriolic. Yes? Because the definition of the word is “filled with bitter criticism or malice”
[QUOTE=LAZ;8675121]
If half the people that bitch actually got behind and supported things (not just this thing, but lots of things) more would get done. That’s the way of the world, sadly.[/QUOTE]
The above, IME, is not a truism.
A far too-common reason for ‘things’ not getting done is that any real change is impeded at the relevant org or administrative level. IME, reasons for this vary from complacency to internal disagreements to fears of what it looks like to outsiders or the IOC to the members of the rules committee being very old and having no languages in common.
In these situations, all that’s left to do is bitch, in the hopes that enough public/participant outcry will not fall on deaf ears forever.
Collapsible/frangible jumps are one thing, but why don’t riders have adequate personal protection? Go to any bike or ski shop and you’ll see all the MIPS helmets on display. Why don’t we have these for riding, aside from the one that Back on Track made for a short time a few years ago? Why was the air vest accepted without any testing or evidence? Why was the EXO – the only technology to date which can protect a rider from massive crush injuries and blunt force trauma to the chest – allowed to disappear?
Who cares if a body protector costs $1500 if it actually protects you? (The EXO costs about $400.) What could possibly be more important? Does anyone really think it makes more sense to spend $675 on a Point Two air thing that cannot protect you from the injuries that have been known to kill riders?
Do I think the sport orgs will do anything, even using currently available technologies, to mandate equipment to promote rider safety? No. Not at this point. The last 17 years shows that the usual position is to let the fuss die down and, well, kick on.
Change will happen when something high-profile and graphically-shocking happens and it’s caught on video that plays over and over and causes an public outcry outside of the eventing community.
So now we’re just waiting for that to happen, right?
So JER how do you account for all the improvement in Safety over the past 2 decades?
[QUOTE=JER;8676429]
The above, IME, is not a truism.
A far too-common reason for ‘things’ not getting done is that any real change is impeded at the relevant org or administrative level. IME, reasons for this vary from complacency to internal disagreements to fears of what it looks like to outsiders or the IOC to the members of the rules committee being very old and having no languages in common.
In these situations, all that’s left to do is bitch, in the hopes that enough public/participant outcry will not fall on deaf ears forever.
Collapsible/frangible jumps are one thing, but why don’t riders have adequate personal protection? Go to any bike or ski shop and you’ll see all the MIPS helmets on display. Why don’t we have these for riding, aside from the one that Back on Track made for a short time a few years ago? Why was the air vest accepted without any testing or evidence? Why was the EXO – the only technology to date which can protect a rider from massive crush injuries and blunt force trauma to the chest – allowed to disappear?
Who cares if a body protector costs $1500 if it actually protects you? (The EXO costs about $400.) What could possibly be more important? Does anyone really think it makes more sense to spend $675 on a Point Two air thing that cannot protect you from the injuries that have been known to kill riders?
Do I think the sport orgs will do anything, even using currently available technologies, to mandate equipment to promote rider safety? No. Not at this point. The last 17 years shows that the usual position is to let the fuss die down and, well, kick on.
Change will happen when something high-profile and graphically-shocking happens and it’s caught on video that plays over and over and causes an public outcry outside of the eventing community.
So now we’re just waiting for that to happen, right?[/QUOTE]
i don’t disagree on all your points, but it is also up to the members then, to not give push back about having to buy new safety equipment, about increased costs to event, etc. All of the changes proposed will have the direct result of higher costs somewhere.
i shake my head over how much money people will pay to decorate themselves and their horses but balk at spending money of good safety equipment, or try to get away without wearing a properly secured helmet (something I have required since 1989). As a facility that does schooling shows I see it all the time… And the $1500 figure I grabbed out of the air because in the dim recesses of my memory that is what it cost to get a carbon fiber nose panel back in my racing days, I have no real idea what developing one would entail. If part of people’s complaints about the Exo is fit, developing a carbon fiber equivalent could give a wider range of fits pretty easily, and if you figure the cost of a standard vest plus a blow up vest it’s not out of the same league, and would actually do some good in the crashes that result in crush injuries.
I believe part of the balancing act is the desire to have the eventing population increase while balancing the costs of getting started. (Regardless of anyones stance on more competitors and competitions that’s been a goal of the USEA) There really is no good reason to not make better safety equipment and make it mandatory, but if it happens there will be people that quit or don’t start because it’s too expensive to get started. I personally have clients that operate on a financial shoestring and would have pause at a vest that expensive, especially if it is non-shareable. I’m not saying it’s a proper excuse, I’m saying it will be heard. I personally think it’s past time to say just do it.
[QUOTE=JER;8676429]
T
Change will happen when something high-profile and graphically-shocking happens and it’s caught on video that plays over and over and causes an public outcry outside of the eventing community.
So now we’re just waiting for that to happen, right?[/QUOTE]
This observation caught my eye, echoing somewhat what I’ve been thinking. We were able to see videos of fairly spectacular, but fortunately not deadly falls at the Vicarage Vee at Badminton this year, and at least one of them (IMHO) showed avoidance of a full rotational fall, when the frangible jump broke away as designed with Boyd Martin’s fall. While “a” VV jump will probably continue to be a feature at Badminton, I’d be willing to wager that that particular set up for the jump won’t be seen again. (From what I can tell from past runnings of Badminton, the VV has regularly been one of the jumps in the sense there is some type of corner-style fence involving the ditch, but the 2016 version has not always been the type).
But, when there isn’t a video, it does seem too “easy” to forget – much less fail to study – a fall, even when someone as charming and beloved as Phillipa is killed by a dreaded rotational fall.
For some time now, I’ve become concerned that in many of our horse sports, we’re so busy making a “fetish” out of a particular dynamic associated with the sport, that we stop using common sense. We should always be on the lookout for a “better way.” I feel this way when I watch my once beloved QHs shamble along with their noses on the ground in so-called “western pleasure” classes. I feel this way when I watch children’s hunters get “calming” doses of something-or-other before classes. I feel this way when I witness naturally high-stepping gaited horses become something other than a horse because of all the trained artificiality of their gait, headset, tailset and hooves. I even feel this way when I watch GP dressage and wonder, “why is it necessary to insist on unnaturally high knee and leg action” in order to impress the judges, judges who should be more impressed by precision of transitions and fluidity of movement.
Horses will – with the “right” training – do almost anything a human asks of them. But we need to stop demonstrating that includes their willingness to be injured or worse.
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