WTF Are We Doing?

[JER]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8676495]
i don’t disagree on all your points, but it is also up to the members then, to not give push back about having to buy new safety equipment, about increased costs to event, etc. All of the changes proposed will have the direct result of higher costs somewhere.[/QUOTE]

But this is where a sport org has to show leadership. If the evidence says this is what makes you safe, then if you want to run under our rules, you will use it. Period. This is what has been done in other sports. Think HANS device.

@LAZ;8676495

i shake my head over how much money people will pay to decorate themselves and their horses but balk at spending money of good safety equipment, or try to get away without wearing a properly secured helmet (something I have required since 1989). As a facility that does schooling shows I see it all the time…

But that’s not your problem. I’m with you on that one, it drives me nuts when a barely-solvent 20something sinks a small fortune into the cool $600 Samshield helmet which passes the same safety standard as the $60 Ovation or Tipperary. But that’s what it is to be that age and you have to let it go. I’m long past that so it doesn’t affect me, and I know from my own experience that there’s no point in lecturing that demographic on economics and priorities.

@LAZ;8676495

And the $1500 figure I grabbed out of the air because in the dim recesses of my memory that is what it cost to get a carbon fiber nose panel back in my racing days, I have no real idea what developing one would entail. If part of people’s complaints about the Exo is fit, developing a carbon fiber equivalent could give a wider range of fits pretty easily, and if you figure the cost of a standard vest plus a blow up vest it’s not out of the same league, and would actually do some good in the crashes that result in crush injuries.

I wasn’t holding you to the figure and surmised that it was just thrown out there. I very much respect your experience and expertise, and know you know your way around safety in equestrian and motor sport. The EXO, if there was demand for it, would have easily been made in more sizes and, over time, it would have been improved on, like every other consumer and safety product.

@LAZ;8676495

I believe part of the balancing act is the desire to have the eventing population increase while balancing the costs of getting started. (Regardless of anyones stance on more competitors and competitions that’s been a goal of the USEA) There really is no good reason to not make better safety equipment and make it mandatory, but if it happens there will be people that quit…

… and if it doesn’t, there will be people that die. An ‘average’ of 3 per year.

@LAZ;8676495

…or don’t start because it’s too expensive to get started. I personally have clients that operate on a financial shoestring and would have pause at a vest that expensive, especially if it is non-shareable. I’m not saying it’s a proper excuse, I’m saying it will be heard. I personally think it’s past time to say just do it.

But safety has to be a priority, and the sport orgs should make this clear. This one shouldn’t be negotiable. Maybe have a vest-sharing system or set up an Area program to loan vests to competitors (this is done with expensive equipment in many other sports, BTW). It can be done.

[enjoytheride]

I’m one of those shoestring lower level riders. I buy things on sale and I take lessons as often as I can afford and my schedule allows. A vest that expensive would be a serious investment for me and I would be forced out of the sport.

Further, if the only thing that would keep me safe is a specific $1500 vest, do I really need to be eventing?

I know there is a range of safety testing on different vests and there isn’t a standard “we know this is safe or unsafe” which is why certified vests aren’t a rule.

Last, this BB launches into whining about the death of the sport and how unsafe things are every time a rider is injured or killed but nobody recognizes the massive advances in safety we’ve made since eventing began. Things are safer. Can they be even safer? Sure. But don’t ignore all the advances that have happened.

In the sport of barrel racing a horse tripped and his rider (ranked 44th in the country) was unable to regain her reins. He ran out the open gate, crashed on the pavement, and killed her. A 12yo girl died while barrel racing last week when her horse had a heart attack on her run home and fell on her. Neither rider were wearing vests or helmets which is their choice but not a rule.

What is the governing body and the barrel racing public going to do about that? Not a damn thing.

I’m glad I’m in a sport where safety is important.

[Gnep]

The problem with the safety equipment sharing is that people are not used to the equipment and that I see as a risk factor.
But if a $1000 safety vest, just saves 2 lives a year, than I would say it is worth the loss of maybe 5%.
I always put something like this in a perspective, that’s less than 3 beer a day, not even 90 bucks a month. If that brakes the bank, I am sorry you should not own a horse and not attempt to event.
Golf, no safety gear required, enjoy.

[enjoytheride]

Guess I’ll take up golf.

I’m not interested in a sport where people have such contempt for lower level riders on a budget. Or in a sport so dangerous that a $1,000 vest is the only way to keep me safe.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8676624]
Guess I’ll take up golf.

I’m not interested in a sport where people have such contempt for lower level riders on a budget. Or in a sport so dangerous that a $1,000 vest is the only way to keep me safe.[/QUOTE]

There is no contempt intended. I imported my EXO, and since I had a very tight horse budget, the nearly 900 USD, for that vest was not in my budget.
So I went to the bank opened a savings account and put $90 bucks into it each month. I got lucky, because the pound took a dive, in between it had gotten rather strong, the vest at one point would have cost 1200.
I do not really get it, some times that’s the way it is, but you see at the LL from BN on riders have 2 vests on a Beta Standard and an air thingy, total cost around 700 to 800 beers and when the crap hits the fan, those 800 beer get crushed including the other thingy in it, bad investment.
And yes, your horse can fall on you even at BN, it will be not with that brutal force of a UL fall, but your rips will not be happy for a long time.
I have jet to find any testing if one of those bubble raps would handle 1200 pounds, my guess no.

Safety is expensive, but it has no alternative. If that is contempt, fine with me.

[Manahmanah]

[QUOTE=kcmel;8675756]
Perhaps the $1500 vests could only be mandatory at Prelim and up? But as far as a beta 3 certified vest goes, those cost less than a pair of high end xc boots, an Ecogold saddle pad, or a CO helmet, at least one of which I see on about 90% of BN riders. But the lower cost vests don’t have any status .(Not that a certified vest is going to protect in a rotational fall).

https://www.equestriancollections.com/rider-riding-gear/safety-vests/supra-flex-adult-body-protector-vest?gclid=Cj0KEQjw94-6BRDkk568hcyg3-YBEiQAnmuwknzW_NARg4_qmtGzJwmNStO0j3Ciers3XRxEslEj3zEaAnOH8P8HAQ[/QUOTE]

A big problem behind this is that, to my knowledge, air vest manufacturers have still not released any peer reviewed studies proving the product does anything at all. If someone has this and the status has changed since I last researched this please do feel free to correct me.

The big difference between certified vests and non certified vests (the non-air variety) is that the uncertified ones do not protect against a potential puncture wound. I have yet to see any instance of an upper or lower level rider sustaining a serious injury from this.

So requiring the eventers of America to all go out and buy fancy new rated vests, to me, has no quantifiable safety benefit.

Sure, BE changed the rule. It was in response to public outcry for more safety. We should not make changes to appease the outcries of the masses unless it will actually make something safer. I STRONGLY feel this change was 100% about public relations and not about actual safety. This is the direction we should not go, and the sort of change should fight kicking and screaming against.

[vineyridge]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8676624]
Guess I’ll take up golf.

I’m not interested in a sport where people have such contempt for lower level riders on a budget. Or in a sport so dangerous that a $1,000 vest is the only way to keep me safe.[/QUOTE]

Do you own an air vest? Do you own a GPA or Charles Owen helmet? Do you own one of the $100 vests? Or do you own a Charles Owen or Airlyne vest? If you are consistently unable to afford anything but the cheapest and unfashionable safety products, you are in a small minority.

Do you ever event in recognized competitions? Two of those would pay for a $1000 vest (although the exo sold for around $500) and a certified but unfashionable helmet.

It’s been my impression that horse people will pay for fashionable products but not for real safety. How else could Tipperary have done so well for so long without certification.

And if you look at the stats, the number of deaths per year for the sport hasn’t changed all that much since long format. If you look at it per participant, it has drifted down; but the number remains pretty close to 3 per year.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8676606]
In the sport of barrel racing a horse tripped and his rider (ranked 44th in the country) was unable to regain her reins. He ran out the open gate, crashed on the pavement, and killed her. A 12yo girl died while barrel racing last week when her horse had a heart attack on her run home and fell on her. Neither rider were wearing vests or helmets which is their choice but not a rule.

What is the governing body and the barrel racing public going to do about that? Not a damn thing.

I’m glad I’m in a sport where safety is important.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Fallon Taylor wears a helmet, but not a vest. Don’t know that a helmet would help in the types of barrel racing crashes you describe. She tries to “set an example,” but she’s the only one - or at least the only one of NFR note. (There was another rider some years back that made the NFR in barrel racing who also wore a helmet, but I can’t remember her name.)

[Manahmanah]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676656]
Do you own an air vest? Do you own a GPA or Charles Owen helmet? Do you own one of the $100 vests? Or do you own a Charles Owen or Airlyne vest? If you are consistently unable to afford anything but the cheapest and unfashionable safety products, you are in a small minority.

Do you ever event in recognized competitions? Two of those would pay for a $1000 vest (although the exo sold for around $500) and a certified but unfashionable helmet.[/QUOTE]

This is the problem, viney. A $60 Troxel helmet carries the same certification as the $500 Charles owen. Despite what the people in marketing would have you believe, dropping the extra $440 is about fashion and not safety. There are innovations in helmets (the conehead) but they are rare. There has been countless peer reviewed research on the subject.

Air vests have no such studies. Studies have been conducted and promised but not released to the public. In addition - several air vest companies received fines and warnings in the EU for claiming the product made people safer when they could not prove it at all. What does that tell you? If they had the data, they would have used it in court to avoid these fines.

There is a big difference in actual safety vs: the perception of safety. If the proposal is to mandate me to buy some safety innovation that is not proven, it can be vigorously inserted (by the people proposing it, the manufacturer, usea, BE, fei, and whoever else) where no sun shines.

[riderboy]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8676621]

Golf, no safety gear required, enjoy.[/QUOTE]

I tried, but no adrenaline rush. Just a waste of good pastureland. I get the feeling from the general public that they just don’t care. A bunch of rich people riding fancy horses doing silly things and if they get hurt? Pffft. 2 horses died just few days ago in the runup races to the Preakness. People just don’t care, I mean if we’re looking for a big public outcry forget it. It needs to be done because it’s the right thing to do.

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676656]
Do you own an air vest? Do you own a GPA or Charles Owen helmet? Do you own one of the $100 vests? Or do you own a Charles Owen or Airlyne vest? If you are consistently unable to afford anything but the cheapest and unfashionable safety products, you are in a small minority.

Do you ever event in recognized competitions? Two of those would pay for a $1000 vest (although the exo sold for around $500) and a certified but unfashionable helmet.

It’s been my impression that horse people will pay for fashionable products but not for real safety. How else could Tipperary have done so well for so long without certification.

And if you look at the stats, the number of deaths per year for the sport hasn’t changed all that much since long format. If you look at it per participant, it has drifted down; but the number remains pretty close to 3 per year.[/QUOTE]

The great thing about our sport is that my $60 ovation helmet meets the same safety standards as a GPA and my Tipperary eventing vest is currently a legal piece of safety equipment. It doesn’t meet some safety standards due to the “puncture” issue which I have yet to see any evidence that it is an actual issue. I don’t own an airvest because I do not believe the research is behind them to prove that they make me safer. I’m sure my double flap close contact saddle isn’t fashionable, nor is my 3 point breastplate, but there is no saddle safety standard yet so I’m good. The reason we don’t have more specific vest requirements is because the research isn’t there.

There is currently no consistent evidence that a certain type of vest will keep me safer, and forcing it into a rule change and telling anyone who can’t afford it to take up golf is a knee jerk reaction to a tragic event.

When there is consistent research by all means (maybe the eventing public should push for more consistent safety standards in vests), make it a safety standard. It will drive alternative companies, price competition, and make it more affordable for more people. I have no problem purchasing safe equipment for my sport within my budget.

We can’t complain that the powers that be don’t listen to lower level riders at the same time we tell lower level riders to vacate the sport if they don’t agree with or can’t afford a piece of equipment we want to shove into law without thinking things through.

[Manahmanah]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8676688]
The great thing about our sport is that my $60 ovation helmet meets the same safety standards as a GPA and my Tipperary eventing vest is currently a legal piece of safety equipment. It doesn’t meet some safety standards due to the “puncture” issue which I have yet to see any evidence that it is an actual issue. I don’t own an airvest because I do not believe the research is behind them to prove that they make me safer. The reason we don’t have more specific vest requirements is because the research isn’t there.

There is currently no consistent evidence that a certain type of vest will keep me safer, and forcing it into a rule change and telling anyone who can’t afford it to take up golf is a knee jerk reaction to a tragic event.

When there is consistent research by all means (maybe the eventing public should push for more consistent safety standards in vests), make it a safety standard. It will drive alternative companies, price competition, and make it more affordable for more people.

We can’t complain that the powers that be don’t listen to lower level riders at the same time we tell lower level riders to vacate the sport if they don’t agree with or can’t afford a piece of equipment we want to shove into law without thinking things through.[/QUOTE]

I think you were writing this post as i was writing mine - great minds think alike! Even the discussion cadence is the same. Are you my long lost twin? :yes:

[Winding_Down]

I wonder what percentage of serious injuries would have been prevented by an EXO vest?

Philippa’s death would not have been prevented by a vest.

[vineyridge]

Unfortunately (or not) the cause of Humphreys’s death has not been made public. If the EXO wouldn’t have prevented death and she was wearing a helmet and air vest, the only parts of her important anatomy that wouldn’t have had protective gear over it were her face, the front of her neck (if the air vest went off), and part of her lower abdomen. (There is some sarcasm in this post about the worth of air bags). So either some part of the safety gear failed, or she was killed by something unrelated to safety gear coverage.

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676843]
Unfortunately (or not) the cause of Humphreys’s death has not been made public. If the EXO wouldn’t have prevented death and she was wearing a helmet and air vest, the only parts of her important anatomy that wouldn’t have had protective gear over it were her face, the front of her neck (if the air vest went off), and part of her lower abdomen. (There is some sarcasm in this post about the worth of air bags). So either some part of the safety gear failed, or she was killed by something unrelated to safety gear coverage.[/QUOTE]

This is what I found out during my little escapad since the exo does not give, your head and what so ever has a lesser impact by the horse. The horse goes thud on to you, but since the vest has a larger diameter than your melon, you just get a glancing blow, nasty never the less.

If you go down stream, the hips probably would not be crushed, but your legs well tough breake. But you can get away with that, the mechanics are rather good today

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=enjoytheride;8676688]
The great thing about our sport is that my $60 ovation helmet meets the same safety standards as a GPA and my Tipperary eventing vest is currently a legal piece of safety equipment. It doesn’t meet some safety standards due to the “puncture” issue which I have yet to see any evidence that it is an actual issue. I don’t own an airvest because I do not believe the research is behind them to prove that they make me safer. I’m sure my double flap close contact saddle isn’t fashionable, nor is my 3 point breastplate, but there is no saddle safety standard yet so I’m good. The reason we don’t have more specific vest requirements is because the research isn’t there.

There is currently no consistent evidence that a certain type of vest will keep me safer, and forcing it into a rule change and telling anyone who can’t afford it to take up golf is a knee jerk reaction to a tragic event.

When there is consistent research by all means (maybe the eventing public should push for more consistent safety standards in vests), make it a safety standard. It will drive alternative companies, price competition, and make it more affordable for more people. I have no problem purchasing safe equipment for my sport within my budget.

We can’t complain that the powers that be don’t listen to lower level riders at the same time we tell lower level riders to vacate the sport if they don’t agree with or can’t afford a piece of equipment we want to shove into law without thinking things through.[/QUOTE]

This is the problem of the sport, just because you do not want to afford it, not a can do question, people are still getting killed at an unacceptable rate.
I retract, I am in contempt.

Golf…

[kcmel]

@enjoytheride;8676688

When there is consistent research by all means (maybe the eventing public should push for more consistent safety standards in vests), make it a safety standard. It will drive alternative companies, price competition, and make it more affordable for more people. I have no problem purchasing safe equipment for my sport within my budget.

I don’t know if the research is there on the certified vests, but I would rather have the certified vs. non, if the price is the similar. I have a Harry Hall, similar in design to CO, but much cheaper. I find it just as comfortable as a Tip.

But I am with you otherwise–I am also budget conscious and unfashionable in my Tip helmet. I have a Troxel (although a nice one) that I wear for dressage. Oh the horrors!

[amb]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676656]
It’s been my impression that horse people will pay for fashionable products but not for real safety. How else could Tipperary have done so well for so long without certification.[/QUOTE]

I’m unclear on what’s fashionable at any given time, but the people I know that wear the Tipperary vests do so because they’re easy to find and try on, they’re comfy, and there are lots of sizes.

I wear a Charles Owen helmet because they’re the only ones I’ve found so far that don’t give me a headache. I don’t think I care about fashion, but that $180 got me a wide range of sizes to try on more detailed than S-M-L and actual documentation about which models are best for rounder heads and which ones are best for oval heads. (Not having a killer headache all day is worth a lot to me, and having already had a helmet save my life it’s a pretty easy thing to spend money on.)

There’s a lot to be said for safety improvements that are comfortable and don’t give people (literal or figurative) headaches.

[Manahmanah]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;8676843]
Unfortunately (or not) the cause of Humphreys’s death has not been made public. If the EXO wouldn’t have prevented death and she was wearing a helmet and air vest, the only parts of her important anatomy that wouldn’t have had protective gear over it were her face, the front of her neck (if the air vest went off), and part of her lower abdomen. (There is some sarcasm in this post about the worth of air bags). So either some part of the safety gear failed, or she was killed by something unrelated to safety gear coverage.[/QUOTE]

Viney. I was there. I saw the fall. I was a fair distance away but you will have to just trust me that no conventional safety gear would have made a bit of difference.

You are thinking in terms of covering up the body mass but completely overlooking the major cause of death in rotational falls which is spinal compression. There is not a product on the market that will address this, nor will there ever be.

[Manahmanah]

Please, Viney I beg you to stop “advocating” for us.

You have suggested we put a lip on the back end of tables (a dangerous proposition)
You have suggested we all be mandated to Purchase expensive safety equipment with no scientific backing.
You have suggested Philippa’s death could have been prevented if more parts of her body were covered.
You have yet to tell us if you actually event at any level (even starter) but you are one of the loudest voices for change.
You don’t seem to know what that change you demand entails, and you never answer where you are challenged. You just ignore the post and regurgitate more talking points from social media.

It’s just too much. When you make yourself loud and you make yourself heard you really need to step up and know what you are talking about. It is vary hard for the “powers that be” to isolate the crap flinging monkeys from the people who have analyzed the situation without emotions on board and can really effect change.

Stop doing this. Please. Ffs.