[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8676938]
the major cause of death in rotational falls which is spinal compression. [/QUOTE]
Do you have the numbers on this? Deaths in rotational falls caused by spinal compression v. deaths in rotational falls from other causes, like crush injuries or blunt force trauma?
[QUOTE=JER;8676959]
Do you have the numbers on this? Deaths in rotational falls caused by spinal compression v. deaths in rotational falls from other causes, like crush injuries or blunt force trauma?[/QUOTE]
This. A high level cord injury is one way such falls could be fatal, but the weight of a 1200 lb animal landing on oneās lungs, heart and great vessels could be equally lethal ā¦ But the latter could also possibly be mitigated somewhat by a more crush resistant vest.
The standard certified vests, however, are not designed to be crush resistant.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8677026]
This. A high level cord injury is one way such falls could be fatal, but the weight of a 1200 lb animal landing on oneās lungs, heart and great vessels could be equally lethal ā¦ But the latter could also possibly be mitigated somewhat by a more crush resistant vest.
The standard certified vests, however, are not designed to be crush resistant.[/QUOTE]
Yes. I will qualify this remark by saying the blunt force trauma patients I saw were obviously not immediately fatal and I never saw someone who had been squished by a falling horse. People in those categories may have different injuries than those who survived. Blunt force trauma that did make it to surgery, usually a MVA, the problems were more along the lines of avulsed major blood vessels, hemo/pneumothoraces and various fractured soft tissue organs etc. not spinal cord crush injuries.
In response to Dr. Joanna Newtonās article, this: http://eventingnation.com/is-this-sport-safe-enough-breaking-down-the-latest-eventing-safety-statistics/ by Rob Stevenson, Cardiologist and eventer, and the National Safety Officer for Canadian Eventing. Interesting read.
[QUOTE=Sticky Situation;8677026]
This. A high level cord injury is one way such falls could be fatal, but the weight of a 1200 lb animal landing on oneās lungs, heart and great vessels could be equally lethal ā¦ But the latter could also possibly be mitigated somewhat by a more crush resistant vest.[/QUOTE]
If Philippa Humphreys was thrown clear and landed headfirst, thatās an axial loading injury that results in spinal compression or fracture. Amanda Warrington, discussed earlier in this thread, also was thrown clear in a similar manner but IIRC, her fatal injury was a TBI and she was wearing an old-school skull helmet that wasnāt (I think, this was a long time ago) up to the most current standards.
In most of the eventing fatalities that I know of that resulted from rotational falls, the cause of death was blunt force trauma or massive crush injuries. But again, I donāt have the numbers, but if I look at the list of fatalities, thereās a lot of crushing going on. Iād think weād all like to know the numbers, so that we can talk about this with certainty rather than guesstimation.
Back to Philippa ā if in fact, she died of a axial loading/cervical compression injury, then maybe we should take a look at her helmet. It was approved, Iām sure, but this now goes back to what Iāve been saying about how riding helmets have not kept up with improved standards for safety. Like the MIPS system, which is quite common now in bike and ski helmets. The MIPsters claim that tests show that their helmet technology can dissipate/reduce forces to the brain by up to 40%.
Why donāt we demand this helmet technology for riding? Why are we okay with lagging behind other sports in head protection? Why are we so damn complacent about deaths in our sport?
I read the article FCF linked, and it bothered me that he wrote several times that the sport is currently at an āacceptable level of safetyā. I find it hard to believe that three deaths in 2016 is acceptable.
The statistics at the different FEI levels were interesting. Is a 10% fall rate at 4* āacceptableā? That seems awfully high to me. These are our best horses and riders. Is the major problem with course design or qualifications? I assume the former, since there is such a seems to be big difference between venues.
[QUOTE=JER;8677224]
Back to Philippa ā if in fact, she died of a axial loading/cervical compression injury, then maybe we should take a look at her helmet. It was approved, Iām sure, but this now goes back to what Iāve been saying about how riding helmets have not kept up with improved standards for safety. Like the MIPS system, which is quite common now in bike and ski helmets. The MIPsters claim that tests show that their helmet technology can dissipate/reduce forces to the brain by up to 40%.
Why donāt we demand this helmet technology for riding? Why are we okay with lagging behind other sports in head protection? Why are we so damn complacent about deaths in our sport?[/QUOTE]
Look what happened when Devon-Aire came out with helmets that used the Conehead technology. How long were those on the market before they disappeared from Devon-Aires catalog? I think people got hung up on the odd look of the helmets and werenāt willing to give them a go. Iāve seen some online in various places, but no longer in stores.
All Iāve seen in the equestrian world is an increased number of options for bling and customization of colors.
First,
You can get crush and burst fractures in the spine even with transverse loading. There IS NO WAY TO UNLOAD A SPINE EVEN LYING DOWN WONT DO IT. So, even with an airbag you will get crush and burst fractures in the thoracic and lumbar spine.
Second,
If safety was so important, then why does the USEF HAVE THE SAFETY EFFORT IN THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT?!
From an failure analysis legal expert witness POV, this tells me something is VERY fishy with the Rob Stevenson article as applied to the US. In NO industry is EH&S or other safety entity stand in the legal department.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8676950]
Please, Viney I beg you to stop āadvocatingā for us.
You have suggested we put a lip on the back end of tables (a dangerous proposition)
You have suggested we all be mandated to Purchase expensive safety equipment with no scientific backing.
You have suggested Philippaās death could have been prevented if more parts of her body were covered.
You have yet to tell us if you actually event at any level (even starter) but you are one of the loudest voices for change.
You donāt seem to know what that change you demand entails, and you never answer where you are challenged. You just ignore the post and regurgitate more talking points from social media.
Itās just too much. When you make yourself loud and you make yourself heard you really need to step up and know what you are talking about. It is vary hard for the āpowers that beā to isolate the crap flinging monkeys from the people who have analyzed the situation without emotions on board and can really effect change.
Stop doing this. Please. Ffs.[/QUOTE]
You may have had too many concussions. Because you are twisting and misrepresenting what I (and others) have said.
I did NOT say a lip. I said a rim.
Why canāt tables be built with different colored, raised rims front and back? Find out what color is most visible to horses and use that on the back rim/frame
To me a rim is either very slightly raised or at the same level as the surface. If you look at the pictures of the BE measurement table fence, you will see a RIM.
In my next post to the assertion that lips were dangerous, I cited to the BE fence.
Thatās very interesting. I suggested a rim because the BE instrumented table jump seemed to have a sort of frame around it. If not a rim (not a lip, but at the front and back, level or about 1/2inch higher than the surface and curved), how about a simple stripe at the back (which is already supposed to be slightly raised) and/or front (?) in the color most visible to a horseāor would that back the horse up too much?
See page 50 here: (in fact, you see lips) See page 50 here: http://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1014&context=gradschool_theses
Now tell me that BE would deliberately put rider lives in danger for the purpose of a safety study.
Second, the EXO is proved to work. Gnep proved it. There are better helmet technologies available that are used in other sports. JER cited a couple. They arenāt used in horse sport. Gnep has said that eventing should get better safety equipment and require riders to use them. If you are suggesting that helmets canāt be improved and shouldnāt be worn in dressage or that certification of vests isnāt important and that better designs havenāt been conceived and sold, then you are an idiot. And if you think that research canāt design safety equipment that actually does save lives and if that equipment shouldnāt be mandated, then youāre a fool.
You said an exo would not have saved Mrs. Humphreys. How do you know? Gnep explained that the EXO does help protect the head and neck. Air Vest Makers advertise that air jackets prevent fatalities and use rider testimonials to that effect. It also protects the vast majority of the torso, so surely her life would have been saved by it if she was wearing one. After all most event riders use air vests which have not been scientifically shown to save lives and are very expensive. Do you have one and use one? If so, whatās the difference between what Gnep suggested and I picked up on except that you chose to spend your money on something that hasnāt been proved to save lives.
I was simply carrying your statement to its logical conclusionāeither she was killed by an injury to an unprotected part or current safety equipment doesnāt provide safety.
AS to my current status, how many partly crippled from horse accidents, 70 year olds do you see out and about?
[QUOTE=kcmel;8677240]
I read the article FCF linked, and it bothered me that he wrote several times that the sport is currently at an āacceptable level of safetyā. I find it hard to believe that three deaths in 2016 is acceptable.
The statistics at the different FEI levels were interesting. Is a 10% fall rate at 4* āacceptableā? That seems awfully high to me. These are our best horses and riders. Is the major problem with course design or qualifications? I assume the former, since there is such a seems to be big difference between venues.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I thought the same thing. Which goes back to, people at the top being happy with the status quo and, hey, itās upper level eventing! Whaddaya expect?!
I did find it interesting that a better dressage performance correlated with a better cross country performance, hello Michael Jung. But mostly it seemed a appease the masses piece and weāre looking into it kind of thing. So, go be like Michael Jung, or else suffer potentially lethal consequences and consider yourself acceptably warned.
Still, obviously all the dialogue has rattled some cages and provoked thought, and thatās a good thing.
[QUOTE=FatCatFarm;8677280]
Thank you. I thought the same thing. Which goes back to, people at the top being happy with the status quo and, hey, itās upper level eventing! Whaddaya expect?!
I did find it interesting that a better dressage performance correlated with a better cross country performance, hello Michael Jung. But mostly it seemed a appease the masses piece and weāre looking into it kind of thing. So, go be like Michael Jung, or else suffer potentially lethal consequences and consider yourself acceptably warned.
Still, obviously all the dialogue has rattled some cages and provoked thought, and thatās a good thing.[/QUOTE]
I would be interested in knowing if the ābetter dressage corresponds to better xc performanceā data just looks at average overall performance or if it isolates falls. Because I could see where a very obedient horse could be successfully show jumped around xc many many times with very good success until the one time the rider missed bad and the horse couldnāt get itself out of it.
[QUOTE=Manahmanah;8676938]
Viney. I was there. I saw the fall. I was a fair distance away but you will have to just trust me that no conventional safety gear would have made a bit of difference.
You are thinking in terms of covering up the body mass but completely overlooking the major cause of death in rotational falls which is spinal compression. There is not a product on the market that will address this, nor will there ever be.[/QUOTE]
Then why are we talking about safety at all? I thought crush injuries were the primary cause of death in rotational falls when the horse landed on the rider? Is that not so?
[QUOTE=RAyers;8677256]
First,
You can get crush and burst fractures in the spine even with transverse loading. There IS NO WAY TO UNLOAD A SPINE EVEN LYING DOWN WONT DO IT. So, even with an airbag you will get crush and burst fractures in the thoracic and lumbar spine.[/QUOTE]
i had a boarder here riding in the ring on her fresh and happy, but generally super reliable and good guy horse. He put in a leap in a canter depart, her butt hit the saddle, she heard a pop and had excruciating pain. Somehow she managed to dismount and sent someone to come into the barn and get me. She was bent over when I got out, we called 911, they came and she then got airlifted out of here with burst fractures in T-6,7,8. She healed up fine, but it took awhile.
Crazy to have that kind of injury without any real misbehavior or falling off, but it happens. I donāt know how that kind of jury can be prevented, other than to never get on a horseā¦ (But that doesnāt mitigate continuing to look for useful, affordable safety gear).
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8677339]
Then why are we talking about safety at all? I thought crush injuries were the primary cause of death in rotational falls when the horse landed on the rider? Is that not so?[/QUOTE]
It is my understanding that PH had her skull crushed when the horse stepped on her while he was attempting to stand. I am sure she suffered all kinds of injuries, this being one of them. I have no idea what her ultimate cause of death was, it may not yet have been determined.
But really, we can talk about safety equipment in a general sense, we donāt know how the equipment played out in this specific circumstance.
[QUOTE=NCRider;8677308]
I would be interested in knowing if the ābetter dressage corresponds to better xc performanceā data just looks at average overall performance or if it isolates falls. Because I could see where a very obedient horse could be successfully show jumped around xc many many times with very good success until the one time the rider missed bad and the horse couldnāt get itself out of it.[/QUOTE]
To play devilās advocate, if you miss badly to anything on a 3* or 4* XC course and the horse still tries to go, itās going to end badly whether the horse is used to help or not. And trust me, pretty much every rider at that level is finding a distance at every fence. I course walked Rolex with Will Faudree over 10 years ago, at the first short format, and he repeatedly talked about where he would change the pace/balance and start to look for a distance. Iād almost go as far as to say if you donāt have a good eye, you probably shouldnāt be competing at that level. <ducks and runs>
Itās just possible a well trained dressage horse is going to be straighter, more responsive to aids and better able to hold a line, which I think is one of Jungās major competencies XC, in addition to a great eye.
The Greek chorus of COTH is SO predictable.
Every time another smash occurs, half the chorus cries out for āresearchā and the other half wants to micro-manage āsafetyā attire.
It doesnāt take āresearchā to understand that riding a galloping horse full-tilt at a very large, solid obstacle, often built to an optical illusion, is a stunt thatās going to cull a certain percentage of participants. Right up there with lying down on the turnpike or climbing Mt. Everest. Irrational acts, all, now matter how much you try to rationalize two of those in the name of āsport.ā
Obviously, the riders, owners, organizers, sponsors and insurers are willing to accept this risk of the sportās well-known ācullā of competitors. If you are NOT willing to assume that risk, stay at the safer recreation levels as most do and donāt become an UL eventer. The ULās are confined by definition to people with an unusual acceptance of extraordinary risk.
Anyone who thinks any helmet or vest, however ātechnical,ā can save them from the forces of 1,400 lbs. of meat and bone falling from a height with the momentum of speed, or being slammed across the ground on your head by same, is frankly whistling through the graveyard and deluding themselves.
SSDD.
Well, the thing is, Lady Eboshi, that very often it can. The EXO proved that.
and for what it is worth, I was in an accident once and got my head stepped on, wearing a helmet. I was lucky and my accident happened at the right angle because my helmet cracked apart. I got a TBI, but Iām still here.
Safety equipment works. Itās not failsafe, but it works. and when it doesnāt work, well, savvy technicians look for ways to make it work better. They donāt just shrug and say, āwell, bad luck.ā
However, I think the instinct on COTH to blame the Powers for not doing anything yet are pretty absurd. Things take time. It particularly takes time to implement effective, well-reasoned change. Anyone who thinks theyāve had PLENTY OF TIME ALREADY has obviously never served on a committee.
If there are a couple of good safety-oriented changes by the end of the year, that will be progress.
We are gearing up for our first HT of the year at Waredaca, where I board. A very large table equipped with collapsible struts (I donāt know the technical term) appeared in the parking area today; I assume it is on loan from somewhere else as Iāve never seen one before. Itās pretty interesting looking; if itās still there tomorrow Iāll snap a pic and put up a link for those who are not familiar with them.
Does anyone know how common these are and what the research is behind them? I assume they are intended to collapse downward and thus prevent a rotational.
Doug Payne designed one in 2009, and it was tested in competition in 2010. Another design is shown in the Kentucky Study Masterās Thesis. ProLogs were also tried back then.
[QUOTE=RAyers;8677256]
First,
You can get crush and burst fractures in the spine even with transverse loading. There IS NO WAY TO UNLOAD A SPINE EVEN LYING DOWN WONT DO IT. So, even with an airbag you will get crush and burst fractures in the thoracic and lumbar spine.
Second,
If safety was so important, then why does the USEF HAVE THE SAFETY EFFORT IN THE LEGAL DEPARTMENT?!
From an failure analysis legal expert witness POV, this tells me something is VERY fishy with the Rob Stevenson article as applied to the US. In NO industry is EH&S or other safety entity stand in the legal department.[/QUOTE]
Here is a nother angle to the Air vests. I had one on, but the pictures show that they are rigidly inflated. The lady at the Rolex was in near panic to deflate that thing, and could not get it done. Which raises a nother question.
But air bags in cars only work, by deflating and so slow down the body, decelerate it. The shock wave of impact from an air vest, as rigid as it inflates has to go some were. That always made me wonder, were does it go, into the body? Or is it the Beta System vest that takes the beating. It takes a double beating, if, inflation and the shock waves. If, it would mean you hit the ground with a deployed air vest, the Beta vest is toast.
The other question, do people actually practice the use of the bubble wrap. Every time, live or on video, people are kinde in shock or fight that thing. A crash is by all means rather disorienting, I had more than a dozen over my long eventing time, and some were huge and put me in the hospital for a accumulated time of over a year. Even if they turn out not to be the meat wagon case, they are extremely disorientating ( for just that reason the one fall rule, is correct ), having a piece of equipment that seams to create a discomfort and not really knowing it, just increases that.
You and I we would have had that sucker inflate 10 times, before we get on a horse and attach that line.
Just because of the 1: 10 000 000 000 000 possibility that it inflates while we haul ass towards a jump.
Well, I am a dummy and as usual do not get it.
Shattered any windows lately ?
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