WTF Are We Doing?

[Gnep]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8677526]
The Greek chorus of COTH is SO predictable.

Every time another smash occurs, half the chorus cries out for “research” and the other half wants to micro-manage “safety” attire.

It doesn’t take “research” to understand that riding a galloping horse full-tilt at a very large, solid obstacle, often built to an optical illusion, is a stunt that’s going to cull a certain percentage of participants. Right up there with lying down on the turnpike or climbing Mt. Everest. Irrational acts, all, now matter how much you try to rationalize two of those in the name of “sport.”

Obviously, the riders, owners, organizers, sponsors and insurers are willing to accept this risk of the sport’s well-known “cull” of competitors. If you are NOT willing to assume that risk, stay at the safer recreation levels as most do and don’t become an UL eventer. The UL’s are confined by definition to people with an unusual acceptance of extraordinary risk.

Anyone who thinks any helmet or vest, however “technical,” can save them from the forces of 1,400 lbs. of meat and bone falling from a height with the momentum of speed, or being slammed across the ground on your head by same, is frankly whistling through the graveyard and deluding themselves.

SSDD.[/QUOTE]

Yes they could take the weight of a horse, if they would be made that way. But there is no requirement to do that, so they don’t
Same for vests, they can be made that they can handle the crushing force of a horse slamming down from 5 feet with around 30 miles and some.
Nothing is perfect, 100% is not possible, but what eventing is facing, is a culture problem, as other sports faced. Other high risk sports found out that, if they do not change their culture of saying, its part of the game and if you look at it the possibilities are just to numerous and please its just a rather low percentage and we are making progress, that they could loose the support of sponsors and the public wanting to see it.

The way it is today eventing needs a mile stone accident like Senna, to wake it up.

Just 10 years ago this guy would have been dead, speed at that point over 200 miles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT17vWFkl_w

[JER]

[QUOTE=Gnep;8677961]

Nothing is perfect, 100% is not possible, but what eventing is facing, is a culture problem, as other sports faced. Other high risk sports found out that, if they do not change their culture of saying, its part of the game and if you look at it the possibilities are just to numerous and please its just a rather low percentage and we are making progress, that they could loose the support of sponsors and the public wanting to see it.[/QUOTE]

This is so true, and many of the posts on this thread are evidence of that cultural issue.

People pay for the horse, for riding lessons, for a jacket for show jumping, etc, but then balk at the idea that they’d be required to wear a body protector that would actually protect their body.

In other sports, like fencing, one single death meant that if you want to participate, you cannot do so without using certified, proven protective equipment.

From the sport org POV, the message is that you can wear whatever you want at home – helmet, no helmet, top hat, etc. – but that if you want to compete under the auspices and rules of the sport org, you must use proper protective gear. If you don’t want to do so, then you can compete in dressage or show jumping or schooling shows or fox hunting or whatever, just not in a competition run by that NSF or ISF. Other sports don’t bat an eye at these requirements – and these other sports don’t have the ‘average’ death rate of eventing.

[D_BaldStockings]

A ‘riding sport’ that is trying to address safety through better gear.
Motocross
http://www.wired.com/2015/06/motocross-riders-dont-die-time/

Interesting helmets and neck protectors.
Since they are not dealing with a horse body falling on them, they don’t have the sort of crush protection that would help Eventers; still, their back and body protectors look substantial and there is not an inflatable vest in sight.

[enjoytheride]

[QUOTE=JER;8678020]
This is so true, and many of the posts on this thread are evidence of that cultural issue.

People pay for the horse, for riding lessons, for a jacket for show jumping, etc, but then balk at the idea that they’d be required to wear a body protector that would actually protect their body.

In other sports, like fencing, one single death meant that if you want to participate, you cannot do so without using certified, proven protective equipment.

From the sport org POV, the message is that you can wear whatever you want at home – helmet, no helmet, top hat, etc. – but that if you want to compete under the auspices and rules of the sport org, you must use proper protective gear. If you don’t want to do so, then you can compete in dressage or show jumping or schooling shows or fox hunting or whatever, just not in a competition run by that NSF or ISF. Other sports don’t bat an eye at these requirements – and these other sports don’t have the ‘average’ death rate of eventing.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone has balked at wearing a protective vest. I wear mine every single time I jump. I did lots of searching to determine which vest I wanted to buy and quite frankly there isn’t a ton of documented research out there so I made my decision based on what fit me best and was in my price range.

[LAZ]

Interesting racing link back when Danny On-the-gas had his horrific crash at the IMS. http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/remembering-one-of-the-most-terrifying-crashes-in-indy-1778477992

[devvie]

http://e-venting.co.uk/2016/05/canadian-international-eventer-mike-winter-thoughts-reflections-part-1/

Some reflections on safety, deaths, and diferences between the sport in UK .vs USA, from Mike Winter.

[akor]

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8677526]
The Greek chorus of COTH is SO predictable.

Obviously, the riders, owners, organizers, sponsors and insurers are willing to accept this risk of the sport’s well-known “cull” of competitors. If you are NOT willing to assume that risk, stay at the safer recreation levels as most do and don’t become an UL eventer. The UL’s are confined by definition to people with an unusual acceptance of extraordinary risk.

SSDD.[/QUOTE]

This sounds so nice, and so hard to argue with…

however, it falls apart fast because the type of fences that are KNOWN to be most dangerous are making their way into the LLs.

If the UL riders kept their vertical nearly flat tables and tables with no ground lines at and maxed out at that at Prelim or above (or say intermediate), I see your point.

However, there is creep down and so I really can’t do what you say, just stick to lower levels.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=akor;8678688]
This sounds so nice, and so hard to argue with…

however, it falls apart fast because the type of fences that are KNOWN to be most dangerous are making their way into the LLs.

If the UL riders kept their vertical nearly flat tables and tables with no ground lines at and maxed out at that at Prelim or above (or say intermediate), I see your point.

However, there is creep down and so I really can’t do what you say, just stick to lower levels.[/QUOTE]

Tables crept into the lower levels a long time ago; they always scared the crap out of my horse who would fearlessly jump coffins and into water–turns out he must have been displaying his innate common sense.

ANY fence without a ground line is an optical “trap.” The ONLY point of not including a ground line is to see if the horse can manage to calculate the height successfully without one. This is a very advanced question in showjumping, and is completely inappropriate when constructing solid XC fences. My former trainer, who was known as something of a knuckle-dragger “damn the torpedoes” type, once threatened to pull her whole barn from a Training level event if the TD’s did not put a better ground line on one, otherwise innocuous-looking, vertical. She knew her stuff.

What is the “question” these fences are asking, and is it indispensable?

[Carolinadreamin]

A few days ago, a 12 year old girl died in Missouri when her horse collapsed and fell at the end of her barrel race. She was pinned under the horse. She died at the hospital. I wonder if a helmet and vest would’ve helped her, or does the law of physics win out sometimes no matter? Her death, obviously, had nothing to do with eventing, but so many posts in this thread mentioned a vest that could help prevent fatal injuries in a crushing scenario.

[LisaB]

[QUOTE=Carolinadreamin’;8679067]
A few days ago, a 12 year old girl died in Missouri when her horse collapsed and fell at the end of her barrel race. She was pinned under the horse. She died at the hospital. I wonder if a helmet and vest would’ve helped her, or does the law of physics win out sometimes no matter? Her death, obviously, had nothing to do with eventing, but so many posts in this thread mentioned a vest that could help prevent fatal injuries in a crushing scenario.[/QUOTE]
We’ll never know. It chaps my ass that I see kids without helmets and safety equipment on. They don’t know any better! Adults can be stupid. They can ride without safety equipment, they can ride badly. Kids don’t know that choice. Horses are “involuntary athletes” and it’s our responsibilty not to kill them because we have a crappy trappy fence or we rode badly to it.

[Jealoushe]

RIP HHS Cooley. Best wishes for a full recovery to Liz.

http://eventingnation.com/hhs-cooley-euthanized-following-injury-at-burgham-horse-trials/

[Lori_T]

So sad. I have enjoyed watching this pair. Wishing Liz a speedy and full recovery.

[beowulf]

My heart sank when I saw this thread (and the updated content) resurface. RIP Cooley… So, so sorry for his connections.

[NeverTime]

According to the rider’s FB page, the accident happened at a low, very wide, open oxer. While many horses, including her first ride, jumped it fine, she felt that this horse (who she described as an experienced XC horse) misread it and tried to put his feet down in the middle, thinking it was a bounce. She asked that FEI and NFs consider a max width of open oxers and making wider/Max oxers covered, like tables.

[FrittSkritt]

Poor Liz. I can’t imagine what she must be going through.

Even putting brush or something in between (or a diagonally placed rail on top, something!) would help.

[CatchMeIfUCan]

Link to Chronicle article with Liz’s Facebook post:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/liz-halliday-sharp-speaks-out-about-hhs-cooleys-death

I’m glad she is speaking out. RIP HHS Cooley - what a fantastic horse he was.

[JER]

We create these XC courses which ask these ‘questions’ of our horses.

Is it okay with us that an experienced, top-class horse who misreads one of our ‘questions’ should have to pay for it with his life?

[HLMom]

Does anyone have a picture of the fence?

[Foxglove6]

[QUOTE=JER;8774223]
We create these XC courses which ask these ‘questions’ of our horses.

Is it okay with us that an experienced, top-class horse who misreads one of our ‘questions’ should have to pay for it with his life?[/QUOTE]

I was thinking this. If a course has questions, and a yes means the horse succeeds, the no answer shouldn’t equal injury, disfigurement, or death. Isn’t there a better way to ask questions?

[redalter]

[QUOTE=Foxglove6;8774302]
I was thinking this. If a course has questions, and a yes means the horse succeeds, the no answer shouldn’t equal injury, disfigurement, or death. Isn’t there a better way to ask questions?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=JER;8774223]We create these XC courses which ask these ‘questions’ of our horses.

Is it okay with us that an experienced, top-class horse who misreads one of our ‘questions’ should have to pay for it with his life?[/QUOTE]

Great posts!

I still, for the life of me, don’t understand:

Why all the false ground lines and optical illusion type fences at SOLID obstacles? Why are we trying to trick horses and riders??

Why dramatically (over time) increase the level of technicality AT ALL LEVELS, and not change the time?

Running at a time of X mtrs per minute over, say 22 jumps, with 2 - 3 combinations (so a total of 25 efforts) at a certain height, one could say that this could be negotiated at X speed, and still remain safe.

Then, increase the number of combinations, somewhat related distances, single fence technical questions to -say, 7-9 per course. You may still have 25 efforst but they will be placed differently, and demand FAR different rides, gallops, etc., but no change in the over OT. I am not Reed, but it seems to me that it simply doesn’t make sense.

It’s not like the horses or riders have developed an extra set of eyes, or an extra leg, so we have to make the courses more complicated and still have to be completed at the same speed.

My hear goes out to Liz and her team. :no: