WTF Are We Doing?

[Blugal]

[QUOTE=LisaB;8776132]
What Capt Phillips, Sue Benson, and John Williams and the Italian dude who’s been dismissed from Badminton all don’t have is a talent. They have the qualifications. [snip]
It’s hard to see on the computer/tv what makes a great designers. Walking courses, it’s easier. Derek DiGrazia and Mike E-S are freaking brilliant and truly talented.[/QUOTE]

I propose that “talent” is not the right word - that talent implies an in-born quality that is unable to be created through study and practice. I think what really great course designers bring to the table is exactly that - study and practice. They study the sport, the fences, the courses, the horses, and they create courses from that base of knowledge. They probably study what goes wrong and learn from that too - including of course their own mistakes. Perhaps “talent” could be replaced by “feel” and I propose that talent/feel are only developed over years of experience.

Course designers do have a real conundrum - if they make a mistake, it can be fatal. So they should be designing for zero fatalities (which would imply that they read and take into account safety research!) but they don’t have complete control over this.

I posit that a fatality-free course is preferential to an innovative or pretty course. Perhaps we need to demand the information that has been gathered by the FEI in its 2015 Audit - which admits that there are course designers with statistically significant higher rates of severe injury sustained on their courses. And not only that, but study those particular courses for items in common that may be avoided in future course design.

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=akor;8776126]
This blows my mind.

The picture of this fence SHOULD BE VERY EASY TO FIND. It’s 2016, not 1985 or even 2000.

What is eventing hiding from?

It’s starting to get embarrassing, frankly. It being the lack of transparency.[/QUOTE]

I find this a bit bemusing–do you think every competition everywhere should post their courses on the web? I see no nepharious agenda that it’s not, unless the whole course except this fence is posted.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8776425]
I find this a bit bemusing–do you think every competition everywhere should post their courses on the web? I see no nepharious agenda that it’s not, unless the whole course except this fence is posted.[/QUOTE]

in surveys and accident reports, pictures are usually standard protocol. one would think considering this was quite the catastrophic incident that they would want some sort of documentation of fence type, orientation, etc.

so while no, an image of every fence is not mandatory, i do think if there is an accident or a crash that a photo should be up for review. often times there are things in a photo that might not be obvious there in person.

[akor]

[QUOTE=LAZ;8776425]
I find this a bit bemusing–do you think every competition everywhere should post their courses on the web? I see no nepharious agenda that it’s not, unless the whole course except this fence is posted.[/QUOTE]

I think that when there is fatality or serious accident, horse or rider, that it in 2016, it should not take a private detective to find a picture of the fence at which the fall occurred. We are discussing something important about something we cannot even 'see" at all.

if I am supposed to be “responsible for myself and horse” and bring up situations I see as dangerous…I would like to get more educated on what might indeed be “dangerous” - while I will never go at this level, matching Liz’s comments with the fence might help me analyze ones I encounter.

I don’t understand why you think I am asking for EVERY fence to be posted, I don’t suggest that anywhere.

[betonbill]

Perhaps the course designer should also have more than a bit of empathy in their design, that if the horse and/or rider makes a mistake they are penalized, but their mistake is not a fatal one. I think there are some very good courses that encourage skill and courage, but also allow for a mistake in judgment/skill of a horse or rider.

Also, from what I’ve been able to gather (not having actually been there) is that the British have more of a do or die attitude toward these things than us Americans, so the fence may very well have been within those parameters for them.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=TrailPony;8156167]
I really can’t understand the cry for more regulation in this sport. Accidents happen, some are tragic, most are not. But no one is forcing these people, or the horses for that matter, to go out and compete at the top levels. Horses don’t make it to the top levels without the skill and heart to do so and the people riding them are aware of the risks. Since the people are aware of the risks you aren’t going to stop them from doing what they love. You are never going to be able to keep the sport of eventing as a competition if you take out the risks, it’s just that simple.

You take a HUGE risk when you jump in your car and drive to the store. There are dozens of safety features and laws to try and keep us safe on the road, yet people die every day from car accidents.[/QUOTE]

BULL!!! When the horse gets asked if he wants to die “that” day…I’ll buy into this!!! The courses/speeds are just not safe these days and some people think this carnage is acceptable!! I don’t!!

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=beowulf;8776429]
in surveys and accident reports, pictures are usually standard protocol. one would think considering this was quite the catastrophic incident that they would want some sort of documentation of fence type, orientation, etc.

so while no, an image of every fence is not mandatory, i do think if there is an accident or a crash that a photo should be up for review. often times there are things in a photo that might not be obvious there in person.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and hopefully the incident is being analyzed and added to research data to help make eventing safer. However, the fact that no pictures are readily available on the internet doesn’t mean that none exist, or are being used to provide information about the incident. I’m pretty sure the NTSB doesn’t publicly release every photo from the scene of a plane crash.

[SinMiedo]

I saw an alleged photo of the fence in question on a FB comment thread. The poster asked that out not be disseminated, so I’ll respect that, but it’s under a comment on this page asking if someone could post examples of this sort of fence. (Hopefully that’s adhering to the spirit of her request :/)
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1314242068593889&id=118169238201184

One thing I noticed was that both rails were flagged. I don’t know if horses notice such things, but having separate sets of flags on each rail makes it look at first glance like they’re a combination rather than a single obstacle. It’s wide enough to be confusing to my Smurf brain, so I can only imagine what it might look like to a horse.

[Jealoushe]

I can’t find the pic on that thread…

Sorry but I don’t agree that those “who should know for safety reports can know” and the general public has to do a where’s Waldo to find the fence. Some of us do our own research. Some of us want to see so we can make a decision should we see this fence on one of our own courses.

[SinMiedo]

Here’s the direct link to the pic.
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154020791212182&id=541782181&set=p.10154020791212182&source=47

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8777298]
I can’t find the pic on that thread…

Sorry but I don’t agree that those “who should know for safety reports can know” and the general public has to do a where’s Waldo to find the fence. Some of us do our own research. Some of us want to see so we can make a decision should we see this fence on one of our own courses.[/QUOTE]
https://m.facebook.com/comment/replies/?ctoken=1314242068593889_1314252585259504&count=16&curr&pc=1&ft_ent_identifier=1314242068593889&gfid=AQB6c-V4BgKONNg7&refid=52

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=SinMiedo;8777305]
Here’s the direct link to the pic.
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154020791212182&id=541782181&set=p.10154020791212182&source=47[/QUOTE]

And what harm would be done by filling the space with brush??? The rider who’s horse died even said that in the walk she “hoped” the horse wouldn’t think it was a bounce!!! Guess what?? He did!!

[SinMiedo]

Forgive my ignorance, but are both rails of an oxer usually flagged like that? I’ve never competed to the level that would include anything but the wee-est of such, so my base of experience is limited.

[Jealoushe]

Sorry but stadium jumps made out of logs have NO place on xc. No wonder that horse thought he could jump in and take the risk. This is so heartbreaking.

[beowulf]

if a hanging log oxer is present on XC, i wish course designers would build it like an ascending oxer.

[redalter]

THIS.

[QUOTE=LisaB;8776132]
I think Denny explains it very well. I can’t find the article but it’s about the mind of a course designer. Darkwave, that’s exactly what we are bitching about. What Capt Phillips, Sue Benson, and John Williams and the Italian dude who’s been dismissed from Badminton all don’t have is a talent. They have the qualifications. Folks like John really do love the horses. But they try to push their boundaries as a designer and don’t have the goods. That in turn is to the detriment of horse and rider. While Badminton didn’t have deaths these past couple of years, that designer made a course that punished everyone mentally. Some horses retired permanently afterwards - some that in my opinion should have had further years in their careers. And he was only the designer for a couple of years. He’s being replaced.
It’s hard to see on the computer/tv what makes a great designers. Walking courses, it’s easier. Derek DiGrazia and Mike E-S are freaking brilliant and truly talented.[/QUOTE]

Bold mine.

And there you have it.

The horses and riders are faced with questions that punish and or intimidate.

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=akor;8776665]
I think that when there is fatality or serious accident, horse or rider, that it in 2016, it should not take a private detective to find a picture of the fence at which the fall occurred. We are discussing something important about something we cannot even 'see" at all.

if I am supposed to be “responsible for myself and horse” and bring up situations I see as dangerous…I would like to get more educated on what might indeed be “dangerous” - while I will never go at this level, matching Liz’s comments with the fence might help me analyze ones I encounter.

I don’t understand why you think I am asking for EVERY fence to be posted, I don’t suggest that anywhere.[/QUOTE]

What I said is " I see no nefarious agenda that it’s not, unless the whole course except this fence is posted." (Well, I corrected my misspelling…) Why do you think an event is required to post any photos of its fences? It’s not like every fence but this one is posted publicly, and I doubt that the first thought of the organizing committee was to run out and take a picture to satisfy the collective curiosity of social media.

[Jealoushe]

Well we should hope that someone is out there collecting data on all the events IN CASE something happens. And they regularly do happen. The general eventing community DO want to see the fences. That’s why the course walk app and my Facebook page dedicated to Ontario XC courses are so popular. We need to get with it. This information IS helpful and takes what 30 minutes to accomplish?

[LAZ]

[QUOTE=Jealoushe;8778122]
Well we should hope that someone is out there collecting data on all the events IN CASE something happens. And they regularly do happen. The general eventing community DO want to see the fences. That’s why the course walk app and my Facebook page dedicated to Ontario XC courses are so popular. We need to get with it. This information IS helpful and takes what 30 minutes to accomplish?[/QUOTE]

No, it takes a lot more than 30 minutes, and if you have 5 tracks mapping is nearly all day affair–I use Coursewalk to map my courses, I don’t do the photos because

A) generally they are not flagged or dressed (no brush, etc) when I map
B) it takes longer for every fence to take the steps of doing the photo as well
C) As one is mapping one is also checking/confirming to be sure one is within the parameters of distance between efforts and fences
D) in my case, dodging curious horses (I run through some pastures) and opening and closing gates as I map.

I’m happy when someone does the Coursewalk app and posts photos of the course when they come, but I do not have the additional time it takes to do more.

As an organizer (putting that hat on at the moment)–the details of the fence in question will be investigated, even it if not posted on social media.

[fordtraktor]

Totally agree with LAZ. We ask enough of our small venue providers, for goodness’ sake – they don’t need mandatory pics of each fence on each course!! Most are not Rolex! What a burden. You want it, you volunteer to do it!!!